Seeking to understand

[Alwin]

There are a few things I want to discuss in regard to the Hofi technique. I have seen Hofi forge in person and on video so I do have some familiarity with the technique on which to base these questions. The first question concerns the grip. I have heard of it described as pinching the hammer with the thumb on the side, allowing the hammer to move unencumbered vertically. Since much of the technique requires forging with the edge of the hammer and since the handle is rectangular turning the hammer to use the edge means the thumb is in a place which absorbs vibration, all the more vibration if you're pinching the handle. My question is whether what I've described above is true and if not why isn't it?
My second question concerns the use of the Hofi grip and the movement of the shoulder in heavy forging. In watching Hofi forge it seems when he is doing heavier work his grip changes. When using the shoulder for heavy blows a thumb grip on the side of the hammer handle with the hand remaining parallel to the anvil requires the shoulder to move out from the body which isn't the most efficient direction for the shoulder to move and limits the height to which the hammer can be raised. I am asking whether for heavy forging the grip changes and if not how the shoulder movement works with the Hofi technique?
If any of these questions don't make sense I am happy to clarify. I am hoping to get pictures posted soon, and when I gain that ability I will try to illustrate the points I'm making.

I want to make sure that I am not seen as someone attacking Hofi, that is not my intention. I am just looking for a rational discussion to understand that which I don't. Furthermore, I admire Hofi and think he has contributed many wonderful things and tons of great information to blacksmithing.

[jimbob]

I tend to agree with you as I have seen other people using his type hammer and just tapping ant the metal ...I didn't see that in the video ...I did see that his hand is parallel
to the face of the anvil plus he seems to work from the back of the anvil instread of from the side.
I've viewed the video several times but I'm not sure I have it down correctly. I guess you need someone to watch you hammer or take a video of you hammering then compare

[yesteryearforge]

Alwin
Just be patient im sure someone with an informercial will be along soon

Mike Tanner

[Ted T]

I do not know the answer to your questions. And I am sure they seem valid.

One thing I (subconsciously) always ask my self about anything that I do is; "How it working for me?"
I would suggest the when that "someone" (Mr. X) provides you with your answers; ask your self, how is it working for me? And how do I feel during and after use? Just my $0,000,000.02 worth!
Ted Throckmorton
PS. I am anxiously waiting for my Hofi 2.75 lb. hammer, and I also need to learn about it. ;)

[Ian]

Alwin,
If your hitting with your right hand rolled (so your hitting with the right sided face of the hammer) then the thumb that would be parallel to the hammer shaft is now on top of the hammer as it strikes. As you point out, with a rectangular handle the thumb then absorbs the impact. Not as bad as those folks who do it all the time though.
I like hammers with an almost round handle for just this reason, my thumbs always off to the side even if I decided to hit with the side of the hammer. It's nothing to do with the tightness of your grip that keeps the blow true even with an entirely round handled hammer. The blow is struck and the energy imparted so even if the hammer head turns afterwards it's already done the job. A fairly light grip can control this sort of movement. I learned that from a Norweigan Toolmaker called Jon Dhalmo who said to move the metal anywhere you wanted you turned the face only and swung with the face already turned, not trying to twist yourself. He was also dead set against any kind of slipping blow, and yet I was shown a technique by Brian Russell for making sharp square corners without thinning by mainly using slipping blows. Both are world class Masters, who's right and wrong?

As to your second question I'll pose you one instead. If you imagine a ball and chain swinging around and the kinetic principles involved and then imagine a hammer attatched to a hand and arm etc I'd ask which is more important, hieght or speed?
Hofi has based his system upon among other things biomechanics, and if you follow that then you can't go far wrong.
Everyones swing is in constant change, by dint of being a movement, but they follow general patterns that can be learned. For fine light work you might only use your wrist, but for heavy work you'd be using your entire body.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Ian

[Hofi]

Alwin
Not easy to teach and to learn and to understand blacksmithing or forging technique on the net. especiely when my English is not as good.
The other thing is that most of the VDO's and photo's are taken from the side of the viewer the spctator and not the side of the blacksmith -the operator and there for the view is many times incorrect AND DECIVING
But I''ll take the chalenge and try to answer your question the way I understood them.
You''ll have to be patient with me because the preperation with the right photo's will take some time to preper. and I will post it here to this thread

You do not have to apologise for asking questions to clear technique and to learn
Just came home 10 pm forging 45 hammers and a bit tiered.
best regards
HOFI

[Alwin]

Hofi, thank you, I look forward your post.
Ian, what Jon Dhalmo said about grip and also about glancing blows makes sense to me. I probably use the edge of my hammer or the pein 75-90 percent of the time while forging. Basically, I use the edge except for the final smoothing and finishing heats. So, even the little bit of vibration that it looks like one would recieve would add up quickly over time.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Alwin

[divermike]

My modest opinion of the hammer technique being discussed here, parallels some of the martial arts training I took years ago. A fist is simply a club on the end of a stick (your arm) but if you can incorporate the action of the wrist, adding a second source of thrust and power, you have a cobra strike. The cobra strikes with only a portion of it's total length. The grip on the hammer, while being loose, is like the strike of the cobra, the body of the cobra is leverage. The swing of the arm gets the hammer moving, yet the wrist and fingers / thumb, then propel the centrifical force to the hammer, thereby adding significantly to the strike. Hofi, in his videos speaks of the grip as being loose, and the hammer doing the work. I have unconciously been doing this, and found out, after watching Hofi's videos, that it is indeed, one of the most efficient uses of the elbow, shoulder and wrist joints possible. Imagine the arc of a sling, at the correct moment, the release of the stone (i.e.goliath) is the absolute force multiplier. Thus when the wrist and hammer, in a somewhat loose grip, are added to the arm, bingo bango boingo, force directed/// metal moved.

[Alwin]

In my training I learned to loosely wrap my first two fingers around the handle while just cradling it with the other two. In a swing the hammer pivots from the two fingers and the thumb. That adds extra speed without a lot of wrist movement. The hammer just loosely moves in the hand while you guide it. I was taught that the shoulder was the main joint to use because it is the strongest and a natural hammer stroke should be very similar to the movement of your arm when you swing your hand starting from it hanging straight down next to your leg up to right beside your head. In a good hammer swing it should be hard to wear ear muffs because your hammer will knock them off. The wrist has always seemed like a weak joint. The repetitive movement of the wrist in the basketball dribbling style still causes damage such as carpal tunnel in my understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

[keykeeper]

Thank you, Alwin, for starting this discussion. I really don't have much to contribute, but I am so curious as to what you are discussing that for the first time in my life I have subscribed to a thread on a forum, so I can stay abreast of this information.

[Alwin]

I wanted to revive this thread because I've really been wondering about these questions.

[element]

BP1002 Hofi Hammer Technique | Blueprints 1000

[divermike]

if you look at Hofi's wrist, it does move, and it adds a force multiplier, but in rhythym and sequence, thus nullifying much of the destructive force on the joint, once again, the old adages are correct "let the tool do the work".

[Alwin]

Can you not allow the hammer to pivot from where your thumb and top two fingers are wrapped loosely around the handle? That way you still get the hammer movement but without the risk of repetitive movement damage to the wrist.

[element]

The wrist is used to "lift" the hammer and to snap the hammer going down and just before hitting the metal you almost totally let go. Because your arm is longer( not literally) with a hammer in it, it will be heavier, right? So the wrist lifts the hammer head so its almost 90 degree to the forearm, Then the whole forearm becomes lighter because of less leverage. Here comes the razzing:p:p

[Alwin]

Without moving the wrist, the hammer will pivot in the hand with the movement of the shoulder and elbow going down and the rebound off the anvil will pivot the hammer back taking the elbow and then shoulder up. Using the wrist to lift a 3 lb. hammer over and over will very rapidly hurt you. Using the wrist going down can add speed but it also puts more wear on the wrist.

[Glenn]

The best way I can explain how I hold the Hofi hammer is between the thumb and fingers much like you would hold a sheet of paper in the vertical position. The grip is only as strong as is needed to not drop the hammer.

[Hofi]

On 02-10-09 Isaid I will answer the questions in due time , most of the time I stand for my words but this time first I was very very busy with lots of tools forgong for Germany ,England and the USA,(hammers,tongs,chisles,punches,drifts )and other projects and my photograffer in the last two month is which is studying electricity is going through ''sevear exams''on the subject ,so i''ll try to do my best with what we have in hand.

Divermike enplanes it al very well I will try to go more in details.
When one looks at the BP on can see in the sequence of the photo's that my wrist is moving 45 degrees from the start raising the hammer to the end hitting point. this is very important part of the raising of the hammer and the accelerating down forging hit.(will be explained more later) .

I (or we) are having a problem with the photo;]'s of the BP the photo's are still photo's we can NOT show how it is in the reality of the dynamics swinging movement of the forging In the dynamics I even more loos my grip on the handle and the palm of the hand is more parallel to the anvil one use the shoulder joint , the elbow, the wrist and the pivoting of the hold of the hammer in the palm of the hand between the fingers when the thumb is NOT pressed to the handle from the side it only supports it.

Why I hold (do not like the word hold) the hammer handle in a very loose grip?

1 our power is limited the harder we hold the handle the less power we have for forging

2 If one holds the hammer strong he can NOT accelerate the hammer and get the max velocity

3 in the friction of second when the hammer will hit the steel I loose the grip completely and we already have the aim we have the velocity the hammer do not need us any more ''let it go''

4 then the hammer bounced because of the reaction and I use the wrist and the finger pivoting to raise the hammer and make the leverage between the hammer head and the shoulder shoeter and then it is very easy to raise the hammer

5 I one hold the hammer loose Nvibration will come to his hand
very impotent is to understand why the palm of the hand must be as more parallel to the anvil and NOT right angle to the anvil .
when raising the hammer and the palm of the hand is right angle to the anvil the wrist is moving to the limit of the joint and damage it but if the palm of the hand is almost parallel to the anvil there is NO limit to the movement and therefore NO damage.

Also very impotent is that when I want to tilt the hammer and forge with the edge which I do very often I change the angel between my thumb and fingers and not by changing the angle of the palm of the hand.

As for you question on my standing and forging ai adid not understand and therefore can not answer.
as for what Gerald B wrote with 85 % i complitly disagree!! and this forum is NOT the place to discuss it. I was invited to demonstrate in England 6 times foue times for BABA CONFERENCES ANS AND AGM and twice as a sole demonstrator for the farrier assoc in their centinary not because of my beuty.
in my last demonstration in iron bridge 2007 I gave a lecturer about my system of forging and more then 50 hammers were sold to day more the 300 hofi hammers are being used in England.

the time that some one is or was spending near or with the ''black material'' dose not make him necessarily a good blacksmith or teacher.
one can forge fantastic design but from the point of view of the hammer use he can be very bad. in 1994 I gave a lecturer in England again about my system and one of the blacksmith which is a very good friend of me now said '' mr hofi I am a son of a blacksmith grandson of a blacksmith 7 generations this is the first time for me to hear a lecturer about a hammer '' my answer was yes you were born to your fathers and grandfathers hammer and you never asked a very simple question WHY?

AS FOR YOUR LAST PHRASE I would leave the baby and get rid of the dirty water for me the dirty water are the bad things that the tradition is carrying with.
Hofi

[Alwin]

When you change the angle between the thumb and fingers without changing the angle of the palm of the hand, doesn't that require the handle to tilt so the thumb, while remaining in the same place on the handle, is above the handle slightly? It seems that would put the thumb in a position in which the rebound of the hammer is pushing against it.

[Hofi]

No !!!!!!!!!!!!
We tilt the hammer allways out wards and then ther is no problam
only vrty rear we tilt the hammer towerds us and that is only for a short time
hofi

[element]

Thanks for clearing those questions Mr Hofi. When i forged i tilted the hammer towards me for hours at a time. In your blueprint you clearly state this in the second last picture but i didnt really pay attention because i thought there was two ways about tilting a hammer.

Eric

[Alwin]

In BP 1002 in the picture with the number 054 and the label tilting the hammer you can see how the thumb is over the handle in direct line with the force of rebound. With this type of hammer when you tilt it like that the hammer rebounds straight up off the anvil. If you hold the hammer so that the thumb is on the side it pivots very easily moving straight up and down, but when you tilt the hammer it can't pivot vertically without putting pressure on the thumb. That is what I see anyway, and I don't understand why that wouldn't cause problems over time?

[Alwin]

Does what I'm asking about make sense? I have been interested in the Hofi technique of forging for a while, but this is one of the things that I have a question about. I am really interested in the techniques of forging and amazed that something which seems so simple and uncomplicated can have so many nuances.

[Hofi]

Sorry for being so late with the answer was very busy with a visit from the USA.
The 54 photo you reffer too is not clear enough the hammer head es hiding the position of the hand.
So I took new photo's of the position from two different angels to have a clear sight of the hammer holding
1 flat to the anvil (when I forge with all the hammer face)
2 25-30 gegrees
3 45 degrees
what ever angel the hammer is tilted too always I forge when the hit is 90 degrees to the anvil.
one can very clear see that the thumb is suporting the handle from the side N E V E R
ON TOP
HOFI

[Alwin]

Thank you Hofi, that does show your thumb better.