Tasks treadle hammer vs fly press

[Grant]

good Morning All

HWooldridge wrote, "A power hammer does not serve the same purpose as a treadle hammer or a fly press".

What are the tasks best achieved by these tools?

-tks grant

[HWooldridge]

This is how I use each - others will have their own opinions to add...

IMHO, a power hammer is primarily for drawing or forming with dies. This may be with fixed dies in the ram and sow or they may be held in some sort of temporary, quick change system. The power hammer typically has a relatively short stroke and runs and a speed of 150 to 300 bpm, depending on size. They will quickly draw material and are also used to block out areas in stock that is then finished on a drop hammer.

A treadle hammer (or Oliver) is primarily for working with hand tools and more or less replaces a striker with a sledge so is well suited to a one-man shop. I use mine to do all sorts of decorative chiseling and punching. The treadle usually has a longer stroke than a power hammer, is easily controlled to apply one hit and is cheap to build. You can draw material with the proper tooling but it is a good workout.

A flypress is a mechanical press and allows for precise application of force and tools to the material. The forging action is different from hammers - a squeeze instead of a hit - and unless driven by a motor, is somewhat slower to actuate than the other tools. However, they will do a lot of work, plus they are quiet and very desireable in locations where noise would be an issue.

[dablacksmith]

i have a fly press and a trip hammer .. the fly press i use to make ladle bowls, i use it for die work and chizeling lines in bar stock for when i make pot racks.I use the trip hammer to draw out stock.. like forgeing out 1/2 of a horseshoe to turn it into a meat turner or drawing a taper on 3/4 stock down to 5/16 for a fireplace poker.i dont own a treadle hammer mostly because i am not that steady standing on one foot! there is some overlap on the treadle and the flypress ..power hammer can do die work but the regular mechanicals (like lg) dont do well with spring dies without changeing dies and possably setting um up with a brake.hope this helps

[devon blacksmith]

Hi befor I had my first power hammer I used the fly press to do a number of things that I now do with the hammers (blacker hammers) punching,rivet makeing,ball makeing,etc

[patrick]

A good power hammer should be capable of a lot more than just drawing as spreading. Upsetting (within the limits of the space between the dies) puching, cutting, slitting, drifting, incising, and forgings special shapes with spring tools are all possible. With a power hammer, you may have to make different tooling than you would if you were using a treadle hammer or flypress. I would ventere to say that, depending on the specific hammer, you should be able to do most jobs under a power hammer that can be done on a fly press or treadle hammer. The power hammer may not be the BEST tool for everything, but if it is all you have, you can make it do an awful lot. With a big hammer you can work big stock and consider it as clay rather than steel. This allows you to create different forms and contours than can be done with other tools.

Patrick

[dablacksmith]

A good power hammer should be capable of a lot more than just drawing as spreading. Upsetting (within the limits of the space between the dies) puching, cutting, slitting, drifting, incising, and forgings special shapes with spring tools are all possible. With a power hammer, you may have to make different tooling than you would if you were using a treadle hammer or flypress. I would ventere to say that, depending on the specific hammer, you should be able to do most jobs under a power hammer that can be done on a fly press or treadle hammer. The power hammer may not be the BEST tool for everything, but if it is all you have, you can make it do an awful lot. With a big hammer you can work big stock and consider it as clay rather than steel. This allows you to create different forms and contours than can be done with other tools.

Patrick

its possable to do a lot with a power hammer .. if you have ever seen the Clifton Ralph tapes it is amazeing what he can do with a power hammer but...it dosnt do the same type of work as a fly press or treadle hammer .. a good air hammer can have some clearance for tooling but not like a treadle . a fly press can be used for textureing and viening cold.. they all have theyre place ..i dont think a power hammer can do all the things that a treadle or flypress can.. i guess it depends on what type of work you are doing...

[Grant]

Good Morning All

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I like the thought of a treadle hammer. There is a lot going on when one is punching, slitting, texturing....and trying to coordinate the punch, tongs, and hammer, it seems one is at least one hand short.

-grant

[patrick]

Actually, I would claim that a good, well tuned, LARGE, MECHANICAL power hammer can do everything a treadle hammer can do. Most hammers aren't set up for this, but some of them can be made to perform this way. Take a look at www.sandersonirion.com.
Joel does not have a treadle hammer, but uses his 250 Murray like one. His hammer will hit a single, hard blow and he center punches, slits, drifts, forms and sets rivets with it in addition to the more common power hammer applications.

I have made tooling to do 90-degree bends with my hammer, punch holes in blocks 2-3" thick, upset 1.75" stock to make anvil tools etc. A hammer with large dies can be fitted with custom dies for repetitive bending and production forging operations. Hand tools can be created to allow for the formation of bowels, tapers and all manner of special shapes.
Now I am not saying a power hammer is the BEST tool for all these operations, but I will say that if you have to pick between a power hammer, treadle hammer and fly press the power hammer can be by far the most versitile of the 3. This probably doesn't apply to the smaller hammers. Some of what I described just can't be done on a 50 lb hammer due to stroke length and power limitations.

Cliftons tapes are one of the best resources available for folks using power hammers. In addion to the ones he sells, there are another 6 or seven of him at various demos throughout the last three decades available through the Upper Midwest Blacksmiths Association DVD library. There is a lot of overlap between these and what Clifton shows in his tapes but there is also a lot of stuff that isn't covered in the tapes he sells that shows up in the public demos he did. Another great resource for power hammer owners is "A Blacksmith's Manual Illustraded" by J. W. Lillico. This book goes throug the proces of making some very complicated forgings are really shows the versatilty of a power hammer.

Patrick

[Ed Thomas]

Of course, Patrick is right. I have a decent treadle hammer and flypress and both get used. But the indispensable tool is the power hammer.

If a good hammer is properly tuned and maintained, you can use tooling as gently and accurately as on a treadle hammer.

What is not usually so obvious to casual power hammer users is the ability of larger hammers to do tasks commonly thought of as press operations. When the die and ram are a few hundred pounds (or more), the weight continues to travel after impact somewhat, and actually presses deeper into the material. A small hammer rapidly strikes the surface, whereas the larger hammers strike and continue moving.

This can be exploited in the bending and squeezing operations (dog-leg, or up-over-down sorts of things).

Most uninitiated assume that a bigger hammer is just for bragging rights... okay it is , or for forging bigger stock. But a well-designed big hammer actually also allows you to approach smaller stock with more options and better control.

On Patrick's message, if you want to go to the Sanderson site, drop the errant 'o' from irion...should be "sandersoniron".

[HWooldridge]

I have to start by saying that I do not own a fly press (although that's likely my next purchase). I have done some work with a 50 ton hydraulic press but not enough to comment.

For the most part, I agree with the various statements above but I don't think the average power hammer has the control of a treadle and you still may have a problem with tool height. Before y'all start yelling at me, notice I said "average". Prior to the self contained air hammers, many common mechanical hammers couldn't do one hit without adding a brake (Beaudry's have a brake built in so they can). Of course, a big Erie, Nazel or Chambersburg in good shape would do it, but how many people had one? I think the newer hammers like John Larson makes have added flexibility but a treadle is VERY useful in my opinion. Lest you think I am biased in a particular direction, I owned a 25 lb LG (since sold) and a 100 lb Beaudry (still in the shop) before I built a treadle hammer. I bought one of the first sets of Clifton Ralph tapes then built almost every tool he showed so I have the capability to do most of the things he demonstrates - maybe not the skill but at least the tools are there. However, as the years went by, I found myself using the treadle hammer for a lot of things and quite often put PH tooling under it for certain jobs.

Even if I had a 300-500 hammer in the shop, I would still use the treadle for at least half of my work. For example, yesterday I made three iron crosses and two 4-piece sets of BBQ tools for a couple of customers. In the process, I have to fuller shoulders, swage the parent stock to 5/16 round, split the stock to make the fork tines, point the tines and chisel the handles for decoration. In order of use, the following tools were employed: Hand hammer with blacksmith's helper on the anvil, treadle hammer with chisel to split tines, power hammer to swage the handle, hand hammer for the tines and the treadle for the final chiseling. Much of the turning or forming of tines and the handle or similar work is done with the hand hammer but every tool has a specific "best use". I could have split the stock on the PH but the treadle gives more control; I could have swaged the handle on the treadle but the PH was much faster and more efficient for the purpose. Actually, it all could have been done with a hand hammer but I'd still be there instead of completing all of the forging in about 3 hours. I still have to go out today and do the final finishing but that has to be done anyway - regardless of how the pieces are made (I've attached a pic of the spatula so you can see the various things I've mentioned).

In my book, I believe a treadle has the most utility to the beginner or occasional user. A PH is indispensable for certain work but it has to be maintained to a higher level of sophistication than some folks can manage. I'm in no way knocking a PH but if I was starting from zero with no tools, I'd acquire a TH before a PH - just my two pence, FWIW...

[Ed Thomas]

Hollis makes some excellent points and I should probably adjust my earlier post to make room for what he says.

I have frequently suggested to fairly new or casual users that they look into a treadle hammer as their first major addition to the shop because for very little money and effort, it significantly enhances what you can do by yourself. It is a reliable third hand in so many tooling operations. It is always "on"; to use it you simply move the piece from the fire to the treadle hammer with one hand, steady the tool with the other, and easily strike the tool with your foot applied to the treadle.

The fly press is the powerful quiet cousin that does so much so well that it is taken for granted in shops in England. Most things that are done on the treadle hammer can be rearranged somehow to work under the fly press, and many bending and squeezing jobs are done more easily with a press than any other tool.

The power hammer dramatically increases the SCALE of work you can do. Because the flypress or treadle hammer are powered by you, they don't really increase the stock which you can work, or significantly increase the rate as which you work. They simply allow you to do many things much more easily and efficiently than you can do at the anvil. Some difficult things at the anvil become nearly effortless.

However, the power hammer allows you to do things which are effectively impossible by yourself by hand... AND can do MOST things that the flypress and treadle hammer can do... though not always as a sensible alternative. I wouldn't even consider doing deep tooling on 1/2" thick plate and reforging 2" round bars by either by hand, with treadle hammer, or with fly press, yet these tasks are routine on the power hammer.

Without knowing someone's specific needs, it is hard to recommend the best next addition to their shop. I can say that for me, the treadle hammer came first, followed by a power hammer, and then a fly press. Given my circumstances, I still think this was the most sensible order and in general the most logical for most people.

Perhaps one other way to look at things... I only ever had one treadle hammer and it is still the perfect treadle hammer for me. I will almost certainly never "upgrade" or change. I have a 4-ton flypress, and it is as much flypress as I can ever imagine needing. I like it and have never felt like it was too much or too little. I don't want any more treadle hammers or fly presses.

On the other hand, I'm now working to install the third power hammer I've ever owned, and when done, will have two operating power hammers. They are just that useful to me.

[patrick]

When I was first considering a power hammer, I was focused primarily on damascus work. I seriously considered a treadle hammer at that time, but was advised that a power hammer would be better for my intended application. Shortly after I aquired my first power hammer, my interests drifted away from knife work. A few years latter I aquired the big hammer I now use and, after taking a class with Steve Parker a few years ago, I have really begun to make the power hammer the primary tool in my shop. I can definitly see the advantage to many people in having a treadle hammer, especially if you don't have the options of a power hammer requiring a large foundation and secluded environment, but now that I have a large hammer I would be reluctant to limit myself to something smaller.

Patrick

[forgemaster]

Hi all

IMHO anything that you can do with a flypress or a treadle hammer can be replicated with a power hammer, you just need different tooling. A well designed hammer will be able to give a single blow, squeeze, drive, etc. Yet a flypress will not substitute for a hammer, and a treadle hammer will not substitute for a fly press. A treadle hammer would be a better purchase for someone starting out than a flypress. I've owned a fly press for many years and only really used it 3 or 4 times in that time. Easier and quicker to use the Massey.

Cheers
Phil

[Mills]

I have had a pwer hammer first and now have a treadle. I find the always on feature very handy. Since My LG still has no brake I use the TH for the one blow feature and my tooling has a lot more room to grow.

[Geoff]

In my book, I believe a treadle has the most utility to the beginner or occasional user. A PH is indispensable for certain work but it has to be maintained to a higher level of sophistication than some folks can manage. I'm in no way knocking a PH but if I was starting from zero with no tools, I'd acquire a TH before a PH - just my two pence, FWIW...

Having just built a treadle hammer and previously built a Rusty power hammer. I can see that I will use my treadle hammer more than I ever used the power hammer(sold it). The level of control is greater for the TH than the PH that I built. I don't doubt that other people have versatility with PH's that I did not, For ease of use and simplicity I think a TH is a better purchase for the hobbiest and beginner than a PH. It is also a lot quieter and so will annoy the neighbours far less. IMHO YMMV

[Jamesrjohnson]

My first hammer in my shop was a treadle hammer that I built myself. I migrated to a LG 50, then a fly press, and now have 2 33 lb, 1 88 lb, and one 165 Anyang hammer in my shop. I still use all of these hammers today in my work. I use my treadle hammer for some of my lighter thinner material and unique textures (I could do this on a power hammer, but I already had made the texturing tools for the treadle). It also doubles as a one legged stairmaster exerciser. I use my p10 flypress for straigtening 2X2 square stock or 1X4 the hard way. I also use it for creating some unique candle holders that I sell at shows. I use the power hammers for a bulk of my work and could not do 1/4 of what I do without a powerhammer. I work out every day and think that I am fairly fit, but my body would not last without a power hammer. I believe that you have only so many beats in your shoulders and elbows and power hammers extend your quality of life. Bottom line, each of these tools have a purpose... and a treadle hammer is a great way to start into blacksmithing... but when you get serious, you have to at least consider a power hammer.