25# Little Giant trip hammer

[Authentic Iron Works]

I am considering buying a 25# little giant that I believe is to be of the "new style" construction. The asking price is $2000.00 and I was wondering if anyone has any advice before I empty my bank account. I have not seen it run just yet but have made arrangements this week. What kind of shape should this machine be in for this type of money and what should I be looking for to determine if this machine is properly adjusted? My fear is that I will spend too much money on a machine that is worn out or will need a ton of money to restore. Also, what size stock would be to big to forge in this size hammer?All comments welcome!

[frogvalley]

As to properly adjusted, well they are notoriously tricky/twitchy to keep adjusted and 2 out of 3 who say they have it adjusted ain't really got it. So properly working and well maintained is what you are looking for.

Take your time with this, go over EVERYTHING. If you ain't spent an hour looking at it , your rushing it. Look at it from all angles, climb behind it, around it from all side.

Look and shake and jiggle everything. Inspect alll shafts, all bearings and all ways (guides). The ram should be tight or not too loose, the main shaft and all its pulleys should be tight and have little or no play. Bearings are replaceable, but pouring babbit is a pain, but can be done.

Look for cracks in any and all part of the castings, the main body is very important and must be crack free. The anvil and anvil cap should mate well and not be crushed or worn or cracked, the anvil being the most important part. New styles have a replaceable anvil cap so if the cap is bad but the anvil is good its might be ok to buy. Look at all the ways, the guides that the ram slides up and down in, shake the ram back and forth in this guide looking for play. It shouldn't have more than about a 1/32 back and forth.

This hammer will work maybe 1 inch stock, I own a Fairbanks 25# and it is rated for 1 inch.

Try to talk him down, if it ain't mint, I wouldn't pay $2000. I don't know who has this one, but if its one of Sids or a recent one from him, his are usually Ok and have already had all the work done to them. He has great reputation, although these machines have a reputation that far exceeds there real value and hence the price is often higher than they should be.

If I can think of anything else I'll post here again.

[HWooldridge]

Frogvalley has good points - for that amount of money, it better be in pristine condition. There are too many choices on the market today to pay that for anything requiring work - it should be plug and go. If you want a price barometer, I paid $150 several years ago for one that was in pieces and requiring a complete rebuild. I sold it later for $2000 in complete running shape, the new owner had it working about two hours after unloading.

If it's under power, stick a length of 2x4 between the dies and step on the treadle. This hammer will work 2" stock - it's just slower than a larger hammer. A 2x4 is a good approximation of max load. To cycle properly, the dies should be no closer than 1" apart at the lowest idle position (not running). Also take note whether you can very lightly step on the treadle and start the hammer. It's sort of like a car - you don't use it at full throttle very often.

[sandpile]

They have pretty well covered everything except the ram/toggle slots.

Where the toggle bolts are pushed in and twisted to pull up into the ram. There are oil holes for the dripped oil to get to the T part of the toggles. On a lot of these old hammers, these slots where the toggle bolts ride in the ram wear up into the ram. Every older unrenovated hammer I have seen has too much wear in these ram/toggle slots, to tune them right.

I have an older 50 with the same problem.

Chuck

[Leah]

Thanks for this thread guys. I just called about a 25lb. Little Giant a couple of hours from here. I may ride up and look at it this weekend. The guy "says" it is in mint condition but it has been stored in a shed since 1995. He said it was running well when he quit using it to sharpen plow shares. He told me he had put a couple of boards somewhere on it to keep it from hitting so hard. This tells me he did not know how or could not get it to adjust. I have asked him to call me with the serial number this weekend. Is there somewhere on the internet that I can use this information to see how old and what model this hammer is? This is the only hammer I have ever found for sale in my part of the world but I don't know anything about power hammers and I don't want to buy a dud.

[sandpile]

LEAH--Call Sid's daughter. She is one of the nicest folks you will get to visit with on a business phone. She has a list right in front of her. You can get the number over on JOCKS PLACE.

Chuck

[Leah]

Thanks Chuck

[Authentic Iron Works]

I want to thank frogvalley, HWooldridge and sandpile for the feedback. I went and tried out that hammer today and all I can say is that something aint right. This machine had one speed and it was B%^^s to the wall. I tried my darndest to feather the foot tread and the best I could do was ingage this thing at hyper speed. I think I remember the owner saying he used brake pads for part of the clutch assembly, when I looked at the little giant parts sheet I noticed that these parts were called wooden clutch blocks, could this be the problem? Maybe the motor speed is two fast? I think I am going to call the company and try to figure out whats going on. If this is normal for this type of machine I think I will spend my money on some other design, like an air hammer. Anyone try a striker air hammer?

[HWooldridge]

Properly fitted wood clutch blocks work great, which is what LG used. I have seen brake shoe linings were used on center clutch models and they are usually OK if properly adjusted.

One thing that makes them stick is no oil on the clutch. There should be a liberal coating of oil on clutch surfaces. That's counter-intuitive but a dry clutch sticks while a wet one engages and disengages.

My old 25 had completely worn out blocks. I had to step so far down on the treadle, the thing would jam and run full speed. I made new blocks from maple on a band saw and fitted them large so the treadle barely had to move to engage the hammer.

Don't write off this hammer but go into the deal with your eyes open and some bargaining power. They are pretty easy to fix if you have a little mechanical common sense (and most blacksmiths are gifted in that area... )

[Cory]

Leah, If you or anyone else would like to know the manufacture date of Little Giant Power Hammer, I have the Little Giant Power Hammer book by Richard R. Kern and would be glad to look it up for you, just need the serial #.

CAUTION: Unplug the hammer before doing a hands-on inspection!!

A few things I can think to look for: look to see if there is shim stock where the crank caps meet the main frame. This shim stock is removed for adjustment of the crank in the babbit bearing. Any excess slop in this area will lead to other problems. The 50# hammer I have had a rebuild shortly before I got it. It has varying thicknesses of shim stock to be removed as needed for adjustment. An easy way to check for this is to stand in front of the hammer, with the crankpin up ( Ram up) push up on the crank pin with the palm of your hand as if you were trying to tip the hammer over backwards. If the crank has slop here and has shim stock, there needs to be enough shim stock to adjust for that slop. Otherwise the hammer may need to have babbit redone. Sid at Little Giant has everything to do this. Something to think about when it comes down to value. I would also look at the crankpin where it passes through the flywheel making sure it's not loose there. The hammer I have has a real nice brake and a removeable spring guard that slips over the wrap around guide. This is a safety feature to keep the spring and any other parts that may come loose or brake from making bodily contact. There may be a BP here if there is any interest.

[Leah]

Thanks Cory,

The serial number is H-8063. I was told that it is a 1948 model but would like it if you double checked for me. Any information will help me a lot because I don't know anything about power hammers. Sid's site is a lot of help. I have sent him an email and may try to talk to him on the phone. I called the owner today and may go up this weekend and look it over and take some pictures of it. I asked the owner more about where and why he is using boards to change the way it ran. He said it was running too fast so he wedged two oak boards against the ram to slow it down. I don't know how long he ran it like this but I am sure going to look for wear on the guides.

[Cory]

Leah, The book I have shows 1949 numbers ran from 8018- 8288 that year. Sid had the original owners name and the delivery destination on my hammer in records they have. I can't imagine what this guy is doing with the wood wedged in that hammer, its would be nice if you had someone that could go with you to look that hammer over, not trying to discourage you here but it sounds like it warrants a good going over. Its hard telling what else he has riggged or what maintenance he has or has not done.

[Leah]

Thanks Cory,

I am not going to take a trailer or a checkbook with me when I go. All I am going to take is a camera and a flashlight. I'm sure the trip will be a bust, but you never know. I don't know a soul who lives near me that would know what they were looking at.

[ThomasPowers]

IIRC these hammers used a slower motor (900rpm comes to mind) and so a 1725 motor would be considerably faster if you didn't change the pulleys or use a jack shaft to slow it down.

Thomas

[Leah]

Thanks you Thomas, I will check the rpm's on the motor.

[irnsrgn]

My LG Spring guard, I was there when a toggle broke when I was young, spring almost got me.

[Leah]

Thanks Jr.,

I had already figured out that spring looked like a widowermaker. I guess OSHA was not around when these things were designed. I had made up my mind that the spring and toggle arms were going to be the first thing I looked at before I tried to run it. You guys don't know how much help you have been.

[irnsrgn]

Leah, if OSHA had been around back then, we might just be at the Model T stage of development right now, no puters and who knows what else would have never gotten developed.

I have seen what happens when a complete wrap around cage made out of expanded metal does when a toggle link breaks.

#1 think about light expanded metal and flying power hammer arms.

#2 think of mangled expanded metal ripping your hide off like a big mountain cat would.

#3 think of getting a face transplant, and

#4 think of bending at the waist to try and see what you are doing.

In this particulat instance, 8 months and many skin grafts and several reconstructive surgeries on a face that would scare a teenager out of 15 years of life.

No maam, if it has one of those death trap, so called safety cages on it, I will not get near it.

Just one thing to remember , don't stand off to the side of one and work.

[Leah]

One more question.

My shop is on a 4" slab. If I do end up with this thing, will I need to dig up the floor and pour a special foundation for it, or can I place some kind of boards or rubber mat under it? Boy, all this sure does give an old gal a lot to think about.

[HWooldridge]

A 25 lb will work fine on a normal slab but you should put some wood and a rubber mat under the hammer. This tends to cushion the shock and reduces bounce on the dies. Tractor Supply makes a cushion intended as a stall mat for horses that works well.

[Leah]

Thanks, I sure am glad to hear that. I did not want to have to dig up part of my floor.

[sandpile]

LEAH-- You are in Northern LA. Tell us (kinda) where this hammer is located and maybe someone is close enough to help you figure out what all this little hammer will need.

Tommy Dean is in N.East Texas There may be help closer than you think.

Chuck

[mike-hr]

I have a 5 1/2 inch slab, and I mounted my 80# hammer to the floor with no extra foundation. I put a layer of rubber belting on the floor, then a layer of two inch pine slabs on the belting. When I had the foot print figured out, I bought a handful of masonry blades that fit in my skilsaw and cut a joint in the concrete around the pine slabs. I figured that if the hammer was too much for the floor, maybe it would break up in a controlled area instead of shooting cracks across the floor.
An odd thing I've noticed, I have a collection of old bottles on top of a shelving unit, less than two feet from the hammer. The bottles never rattle off the shelf, but things 30 feet away will occasionally settle while using the hammer. Must be a wavelength thing.
It may be worth mentioning that there is a layer of hardpan under my shop that's at least six feet deep. I visited a smith in Eugene, OR who lives in the Alluvial soil of the river valley. He put a very sizable foundation under his 200# Beaudry, and it has sunk a noticeable amount.

[Leah]

Sandpile, I went to look at the hammer this morning and I think I am going to get it. Thanks to all the information I got from you guys and an email from Sid, I could tell enough to make a decision. I took about two hours and went over everything with a fine tooth comb. There is slack in the babbitt bearing but there are still a couple of pieces of shim under the bearing cap. I THINK I may be able to run it for a while before it needs to be fixed. If not, I have poured bearings before. I do know that I probably will have to buy either the ram or ram guides or both. I don't know how much adjustment (if any) there is. The ram guides are bolted on with three bolts and there may (or may not) be some adjustment there. The thing has very good bones and was covered with years of grease, oil and dust, so I know it had been kept lubed. The first thing I did was to look at the parts that Sid does not sell. All of them checked out so the rest of it can be fixed. I did not even run it. The motor was 220 so we poked the end of the wires into a 110 outlet just to make sure there was life in it. I stepped on the treadle( after I pulled the wires out of the outlet ) and made Steve rotate the back pulley to make sure nothing was frozen. Between my elbow grease and checkbook and Sid's parts list, I think I can end up with a good hammer. By being able to show the seller that his "mint" hammer had some flaws, I was able to get him to knock 1/3 off the selling price. I am really looking forward to getting it in tip top shape.

Mike, thanks for the info on the foundation. I am pretty sure I can get some old conveyor belt from work.

[sandpile]

LEAH-- You just tickle me to death. Worlds common sense, and gobs of try.

Congrats on getting 25* er.

Chuck