Ramsberg Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Hi all, I am wondering if anyone knows anything about the origin of the double bick or horn anvil. They seem to be very popular with all of the modern companies who make anvils now, and I am wondering if it is of modern design or an ancient one. As a side note I am also wondering when contries in Europe began to add the bick to their anvils. I believe that in a lot of Asian contries they still don't use bicks on thier anvils. Yet another question, I would greatly appreciate to hear from those who have and use a double bick anvil, as to how often you use the second flat top bick and what you use it for. Thanks all, Caleb Ramsby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip in china Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I have a double bick. I find that there are shapes on the square bick which are easier to use than on the rest of the anvil. If I were more experienced then this probably would be less important to me. I know good smiths can make anything on a single bick! Having said that I also have a single bick of exactly the same size. I love them both and use them both! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 They have been using double horned anvil for at least 500 years in europe; far longer than the "london pattern" anvil we are used to here in America. There exists at least one medieval picture of an anvil with two projections on it. I'll dig in the books tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Salvati Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Thomas, you got that picture of the the anvil with the 4 horns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Browne Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Isn't the double "bick" pattern the Paris or Navy pattern? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt87 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 So far as I've seen, most general purpose anvils were basically a lump of wrought iron with a steel face (if you were lucky) until a mere, say, 200 years ago. Separate bick-irons/bickerns set into the end of a log were commonly used when you needed one. Armouring though is another kettle of fish, and judging by the woodcuts etc. I've seen, I would say that's where the double-horned anvil comes from. There's also been suggestions here and there that 'church window' anvils were armourers' anvils, for use as swages in shaping sheetiron. As an aside, I don't see why the London pattern is so common. Okay, so with the integration of so many features, a smith might be able to perform say 85% of forging tasks with a London pattern anvil and a hammer, as opposed to 80% with a suitable hornless and hole-less anvil. Why not add a square horn on there and increase that still? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazilla Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Apart from stake anvils, double horn main anvils appear to become more "common" in the 17th century (as far as I found out). There's a very nice picture of Velasquez with a double-horned anvil. Typical French anvils still follow this basic form (broad face, low anvil, four feet). You can see this picture and others on A Gallery of Early Blacksmithing. There's also another thread on old anvils ("period forges") on this site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Truth is the double bick anvil is the result of a smith who couldn't remember which way to point the horn. The four horned model was designed by Santa for use at the north pole. Of course. One simply HAS to wonder how all these other silly myths get started. Eh? Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 (edited) "The Armour and His Craft", ffoulkes, plate V; has a picture of a large lovely double bick'd anvil from the 16th century, (1500's), that has a number of figures sculpted in the sides but shows evidence of long and hard usage. (Out in cheap Dover reprint) (Note that this source is not a great one to base how armour was made research on; as the field has progressed a lot since it was originally published; but a picture of a 16th century anvil is still a picture of a 16th century anvil...) There are several renaissance examples of the double bicked "T stake" anvils often shown in combination with large hornless anvils in a shop. Many show up in pictures of Vulcan---like "Venus at the Forge of Vulcan", a popular subject for paintings during parts of the renaissance. The large T stake version continued on into the 19th century for speciality crafts like barrel making and can still be found at Quad-States; but for a hefty price. IIRC that four pointed anvil can be found in "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel" and I have met a smith who welded up a version of it to use at renn fairs. (I need to check this again; spent breakfast scanning "The Best of the Hammer" which pointed me at ffoulkes...) Edited October 31, 2008 by ThomasPowers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsberg Posted October 31, 2008 Author Share Posted October 31, 2008 Philip, Thanks for the response, is your flat bick wider at the top then at the bottem, that is, is it undercut? Thomas, Thanks for the book referance, I will try to hunt one of those up. I could see how having a square block anvil and a double bick stake would have it's advantages. As long as the double bick was in easy reach of the block. Matt, As to the popularity of the London Style anvil, that is one of the reasons that I was asking. I had thought that mabey the double bick style was a recent incarnation and was just now catching hold. It appears that it has been around for a rather long while, just not so much on this(USA) side of the pond. Gazilla, Thanks for the great link! I am stunned by the mass of some of those anvils! "The Forge of Vulcan" painting is very interesting, seeing as how it has both a double bick stake and a double bick anvil. It is curious that both of the bicks on the main anvil have flat tops and only the double bick stake has rounded tops. Thanks everyone for sharing, this is becoming a very interesting discussion! A short personal story, years ago when I first started blacksmithing I had made a heavy table with a 2" thick by 18" by 18" plate of steel for my "anvil" and another plate just as thick but 18" by 8" hanging over and bolted down to the table as a "bick". The larger plate I just bolted down flat(I didn't know any better at the time, I should have been using it's edge instead). Well, I didn't have a round surface to bend the curves over, so I got very used to forging curves over the edge etc. When I eventually got an anvil I had a hard time getting used to using the rounded bick! Caleb Ramsby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce wilcock Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 the oldest anvil in the shop is double piked one is flat and undercut good to forge shoulders they were usual in shipyards and some of the old men called them engineers anvils.Dad thought it the best anvil we had and used it a lot,the ones i have seen have all been a good age , the portsmouth anvil is usualy a cast steel anvil and a more modern shape without steps down to the pikes ,were double piked anvils made in the USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazilla Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 One Wolfgang Gaitzsch published an article in Hephaistos 7/8 2006 (the German blacksmithing association's magazine) about roman anvils, with a picture of a Pompeii mural depicting what he considers a horned anvil. Might be an artist's interpretation of a Niklausberg type though. My personal story about anvils is that I got hooked since I spent some time on anvilfire and saw this guy's website linked: Photos d'enclumes... I'm very fond of these old, odd individual yet functional forms. And when ready to give up, my teacher showed me Bruce Wilcox's work. I confess being an addict :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsberg Posted November 3, 2008 Author Share Posted November 3, 2008 Bruce, A very enlightining reply! So it sounds like the double bick anvil was not absent from early american development after all. I wonder why exactly the London Pattern became so popular. It seems to me to be a mass production type of thing. Gazilla, Those are some great links, thanks! It is interesting that what appear to be the older double bick anivls there have the round bick turned up! Very intruiging. . . Caleb Ramsby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsberg Posted November 3, 2008 Author Share Posted November 3, 2008 About the double bick being known as a engineers anvil. I could certainly see how the second flat top bick would come in handy when forging machine parts. Very fascinating. Caleb Ramsby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGropp Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 I much prefer working on a double horned anvil for the simple reason that the long flat tapered horn gives a broader size range of top and side faces to work with. It also allows the anvil to have a wider main face and a thick deep body, giving the anvil more mass and power in the area of most general use. I find them to be a lot more useful and versatile in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip in china Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 The square bick isn't undercut. The sides are parralell. (I had to look to see). It is a Hofi and I must say I am extremely pleased with all aspects of it. The shelf is very useful. It will all be even better when, eventually, I get round to making a stand for it. At present it is on a stump which prevents me from taking advantage of some of the very special features on it. I just need to get some 2" plate profiled for the stand to start with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip in china Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 I happened upon this old thread and wanted to make 3 points 1. I apologise for my spelling of Parallel above. Don't know what I was drinking when I typed that one but it must have been strong. 2. Re the references to double bick anvils being called navy anvils: in UK they are sometimes called Portsmouth anvils. Portsmouth is a huge naval base in UK so maybe the idea comes from the same root. 3. By way of compromise I now have a 3rd anvil which has a tapered heel so is sort of a compromise between single and double bick anvils! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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