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Burner Mockup Question


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Hey fellow metal burners. I am in the process of figuring out my ribbon burner. My question is on the size of the mockup. Does the length of the mockup need to match the length that the final burner will be, or do only the number and size of holes matter?

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If you are doing this for a NA burner Frosty has more experience, but from a purely mechanical perspective the mockup should match as closely as possible the planned ribbon burner configuration you plan on making in castable refractory.  This includes length, width, and depth of burner block (so the burner ports are the same length as the final product) as well as the configuration of the "backbox" used to connect the mixing chamber and the hole pattern.  This should be done for either NA burners or fan powered, but is more critical for NA burners as you don't have as many modulating options.

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Good Morning Duel

I have used naturally aspirated Ribbon Burners. To make them work excellent, you have to limit the number of Holes. If you want more Holes, you Have To Use a Fan/Blower. It is just a function of how much Air you can control through your intake and how many holes are actually going to receive the Fuel/Air mix to create the Mini-Burners.

Neil

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I haven't been active recently and don't know if this has been addressed by others, for some reason my comp shows hardly any new posts.

What do you mean by "mock up?" Almost everything matters in a NA burner, getting one to operate properly is a "main" matter of pressure and flow balance. It needs a reasonably even balance across all the outlets. If the flow is slower than the flash front velocity of the fuel air mix it WILL burn back into the plenum. As the burner block (with the outlet holes) reaches increased temps the flame front velocity falls in direct relation, flow velocity must keep the block from reaching burn back temp.

On the other hand if the flow rate is too great or fast it will blow the flames off the block and can cause woofing or even loud detonations. I wrote my basic understanding of NA ribbons along with the build instructions and published it here. It is in the propane burner section of IFI. The NARB in particular under that name.

Read through them and do a little sketch book work and get back to me. I've been hospital sick recently and am not thinking very clearly just yet. I'll be happy to help though, do us both good.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

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Posted (edited)

It has seemed kinda quiet around here lately.

When I say mockup, I just mean the dummy block of wood used to determine size and count of burner holes. Your trial and error block. I recall reading through your post, but I will definitely go review it again and get some sketches done. I appreciate the help. Hope you feel better soon mate!

Edited by Mod30
Remove excessive quote.
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Okay, that makes sense though I'll have to read through them again to remember what I said.

I'll do my best, keep your fingers crossed.:rolleyes:

Frosty The Lucky.

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Ok, getting the T Burner put together and testing it before hooking it up to the ribbon burner. For some reason I can't seem to get it to light. I've attached some pictures of the burner. I'm using a 30psi regulator, needle valve, and ball valve before the quick connect. The tip length difference is the two different tips I tried in it.PXL_20240607_180443334.thumb.jpg.3f5e691be84a745c5b2fa3b7754e08fe.jpgPXL_20240607_180433246.thumb.jpg.7d1f9a640b259f7223c9bb6048f35f72.jpgPXL_20240607_180329758.thumb.jpg.7678ea1280f2c71eb592d20ad4b3e899.jpgPXL_20240607_180337797.thumb.jpg.83ecc3a979b8dba3478ab30a3d33d783.jpg

I did also try this with a coupling.

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Did you follow my T burner plans posted in the IFI propane burner section? I believe they're pinned to be easy to find.

The mixing tube looks to be about 6" long and the T says its 1" x 3/4" so that much looks okay. I never use  bell reducer for a flare but lots of guys tune them to work so it's maybe okay.

The problem I see is in the pic looking down the mixing tube, the gas jet (mig contact tip) is off center. Centered down the length of the mixing tube is important.

What diameter are the mig tips? 

The farther away from the Throat (where the T and mixing tube meet) draws more air, that is how I tune mine, I NEVER extend the jet farther than half way across the intake ports as seen in your pic.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Yea the pic down the tube was slightly off. It is centered though. The tip is .035. Only thing I can think of is maybe my tank is just to low to provide enough gas. I'll stick with the shorter tip then as it's right at about midway. I guess I'll try again and update when I can get a full tank.

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A low tank doesn't usually cause issues if it's a short burn time but full is better. 0.035 is what I run in my 3/4" Ts. We'll get it tuned and working.

Frosty The Lucky.

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Ok, barely cracking the needle valve I did get it to light...sort of. It was burning back to the mig tip, and as soon as I open the needle valve more it goes out. Take off more tip?

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How many psi are you putting through the regulator? I've never used a needle valve, I only have a 1/4 turn ball valve between the regulator and burner and that's just open/closed. I've had burners that wanted me to take a second or so opening the ball valve but if it needed more I rebuilt the burner I'd done something wrong.

Just open the needle valve and forget it's there. At best they're useful for fine tuning a specific flame for a specific reason.

Do you have a gage on the regulator? Except for very broad psi I do NOT recommend a gage, too many people try to tune a burner to run under the same pressure some guy on the internet runs his. You want to tune the flame, not the pressure if that makes sense, if not forget I said it for now.

Burning back to the jet means there isn't nearly enough psi to operate. If on the other hand it blows the flame off the end of the burner the psi is too high. 

Put the short jet back in, we'll go from there.

I run 0.035" mig tips in mine, getting them to induce enough combustion air is usually the problem but I have that down to a process. EZ PZ.

If you get by a real plumbing supply see if you can talk them out of a couple 3/4" "thread protectors." They look something like couplers but are very thin, they're only screwed onto the ends of pipe to protect the threads during shipping. You will have to reassure them you are NOT going to use them as couplers.

A thread protector is all the "flare" I've ever used on a T burner and that more to protect the mixing tube from being burned up. The local plumbing shop gave me a bucket of thread protectors to get rid of them. They know what I was doing so they saved a dump run and I got a free bucket too.:)

If you can't get a thread protector see if you can't find a smaller bell reducer, as small a diameter increase as you can find. You do NOT need that big thing that much increase can reduce induction and make it burn more poorly.

Frosty The Lucky.

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PXL_20240608_003247312.thumb.jpg.3c5f85f6a1ff3fba191b7a9ba4110016.jpgThis is what my setup looks like. I tried starting at 5psi. It seems like it's blowing it out so I will try just cracking the regulator? I'll have to see if I can find thread protectors. I'm sure there is a plumbing supply nearby somewhere.

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I may possibly have figured out my problem....it helps if you double check things. My tip was .025 not .035. upon replacing it if I light it with minimal gas pressure and slowly turn it up it will catch and hold the flame and was able to turn up to 5 psi and had it roaring. Now to make it work with my ribbon burner head lol.

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Funny how that works isn't it? I've done something like that so many times I double check everything. One last bit of advice. Lose all that crap hanging off your jet fixture! All that weight will knock the jet out of alignment if a breeze waggles the hose. I put the on off valve on the output side of regulator and run hose to my manifold. I have one each 4 and 2 burner forges and the final circuit to the burner is copper line. It supports itself so the jets stay put.

Frosty The Lucky.

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