hbmasa Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Hello all. I'm starting my fourth kiln insulation stuffing in about 15 months and it's getting old(heavy stuff in Lil box). Tomorrow I've got more arriving for my first propane tank bodied forge. Perlite and kastolite were suggested as a base layer used 50/50. Does anyone know how to determine the amount the halves? Use by weight, volume or scoops, wet or dry etc. If any tips on using as a base layer for tank forge please help. This is to keep kaowool out of my life for good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbmasa Posted February 21 Author Share Posted February 21 And is there a right way to apply the first layer around the metal inside of the forge. I've done my little rectangle ones in about 2 steps but it was on kaowool. Just realized. I bought 4.5 lbs of plistex on jungle for 25dlvd. Any thoughts? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Leave the perlite OUT and buy enough 1", 8lb. ceramic refractory blanket to make 2 layers, rigidize it and then apply the Kastolite. Perlite has a melting temp under 1,000f and mixing it will degrade any refractory you mix it with. Plistex is an excellent kiln wash. My only thought is what the heck is dlvd? All the metal on a forge goes OUTSIDE the refractory liner, the only iron/steel that is supposed to go inside is what you're going to beat on or bend. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbmasa Posted February 21 Author Share Posted February 21 I've got a nice forge now, but it has kaowool. It got a few cracks and I'm scared. Id like to be able for my daughter to see what all the rackets about outside. Dlvd is delivered shortened. ( though it does look like blvd). I thought that price seemed cheap by at least $50. I was gonna cover the perlite and castolite with some straight castolite( to protect perlite maybe, its castable refractory if thick enough right?) Will straight castolite stick to the metal if I butter it. It's obviously a big mistake to do this but I ordered the stuff and destroyed my backup tank already . Plus, those silvery tanks look so cool all shined up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 Let me see if I have what you wrote straight. You want to let your daughter do some smithing but you are afraid of the cracks in your forge's liner. What about the cracks scares you? If you have Kastolite 30 it is excellent for patching hard refractory furnaces. Industrially it's one of it's main uses. Clean out the cracks as well as possible. Sift the aggregate out of a small quantity of Kastolite, I used a kitchen strainer and mix to about tooth paste consistency. After buttering the inside of the cracks, press the mix into them until the cracks are too small. THEN add some water to the mix till it's about like latex paint and let it flow into the cracks. Force it in with a plastic or rubber spatula. Put it in a plastic tote with a few inches of water in the bottom, cover and let it cure for a day or three to cure the patches. Letting the patches cure properly is more important than curing the whole liner, you want to prevent as much shrinkage as possible in the patches. Make sense? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbmasa Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 I've got the plistex coming in should I use it instead of kol? I guess they're about the same $$. Yeah, I want my daughter outside but with the effects being so severe. It bothers me. I used qts of rigidizer on kaowool first installation. But I've knocked the entrance of the forge down to bare with cable inserts. Still bothered this stuff can be so deadly but it's OK to have the innards of forge dry and shrink an 1/8"and leave a gap outlining perimeter of whole entrance. What about smashed g3 brick mashed to powder and added to kol smeared on the tank interior? I could recoat in kol or plistex but want to make a blanket free tank forge If it's so dangerous I'd like to know if it's sealed or just pumping straight out bad fumes through cracks or exposed blanket like a dry sponge but it is still white from being kol ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 Use the one you have, if you are waiting on both or have both use the Kastolite for the patch and kiln wash it with the Plistex when it's cured. Smash bricks and mix it with Kastolite to replace a kaowool liner? If you are that afraid of ceramic blanket refractories I strongly suggest you NOT build a propane forge and go with solid fuel. your crushed brick and kastolite liner is NOT going to be a good liner. The outside of the forge WILL get very HOT and the brick pieces will crumble with a coupe uses. A total waste of your time and money. Built correctly ceramic blanket refractory is completely encapsulated and CAN NOT get out in your breathing air. The directions and plans are easy to follow and located in the Propane forge section of Iforge. Do NOT experiment with things you THINK might work, you do NOT know enough. That is not a dis, nobody is born knowing this stuff and that's what we old timers are doing here. However if you can't afford to do this right it is not safe to do a hack. Build a coal or charcoal forge. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbmasa Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 The one I have now was built per specs to be safe but got cracked around the opening from knocking into it and might be polluting. I know it wouldn't be in the 2700 club. But couldnt I get steel white with only kastolite insulating. No perlite. As close to 2" as I can, provided the tank will let me go 360 degrees Tx Due to density of homes and our wind, non cooking fires are not permitted on entire island and I admit to liking only doing a few runs at a time to keep craftsmanship up.. With those two, it seems like to much too try to hide smoke from the cruising backyard policeman 5-6 times daily and more for some friend of fire department all day.i was told to put out a propane chimney one day. It was homemade It doesn't need to be perfect just blanket free. I could leave out the perlite Tx I could put whole1.5" blocks of brick in corners and around forge to absorb and hold heat if that works I was gonna block doors off too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbmasa Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 Wasn't perlite used with kastolite before blankets came out? Mail arrives at about 4 so anyone around please safe me a 5th lining. And with a tank forge, isn't the distance to open air gonna keep heat in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 16 hours ago, hbmasa said: I used qts of rigidizer on kaowool first installation. I suspect this is the source of your problems. You stated you have a propane tank size forge. There is no circumstance I can think of that would require quarts of rigidizer. Normally we suggest people add food coloring to the rigidizer so you can see how far it has penetrated into the blanket. It does not need to be drenched and dripping. If I understand you correctly, the blanket layer pulls away from the Kastolite and leaves a gap between the two, which is what concerns you. However, if you follow the steps listed on here and you are applying the materials correctly this should not happen. Install a layer of blanket. Apply rigidizer. Completely dry that layer of blanket with direct flame. Install the second layer of blanket. Apply rigidizer. Completely dry that layer. Now spritz the surface of that blanket with water before you apply the Kastolite directly to it. Enclose the whole thing in a plastic bag or tub with some water and or/wet towels for a few days. Let it air dry for a day or two. If you have an incandescent bulb drop cord with a 40 or 60 watt bulb you can put that inside for a day or so to help drive off excess moisture. Then you need to finish off by running flames in the chamber briefly at first. If you see steam escaping stop immediately. Gradually you should be able to fire the burners longer and longer until you are able to get up to a glowing forge interior. I don't apply plistex/matrikote, etc. until after I have been able to fully fire the Kastolite, but I don't know what other people do. 12 hours ago, hbmasa said: But couldnt I get steel white with only kastolite insulating You're assuming the insulation is the problem - and you may be correct. It's also possible that your burner(s) is not up to the task or that you have wide open ends on your forge or that you are not running high enough pressure to bring your burners to their full potential. The only times I have used perlite in a build have been under a layer of insulating blanket. I wanted a flat floor in a cylinder shaped forge, so perlite let me easily transition from the curvature of the shell to flat, but I still used the blanket over the top of it, and then Kastolite on top of that. If your forge and burner are functioning properly, I'm fairly sure that a thin layer of Kastolite will not insulate well enough to avoid melting perlite directly behind it. If they are mixed together you will just end up with a weak porous layer. Kastolite already contains little spheres designed to help with its insulating properties. You don't need to add anything to it. The dangers of ceramic wool fiber are real, but they can be eliminated for all practical purposes by using the correct techniques. There is another option which reportedly does not have the biopersistence and respiratory consequences of kaowool. It is called Superwool. I have used it and have noticed no significant difference in functionality compared to kaowool, but I still rigidize it and seal it with Kastolite even though the manufacturer claims it does not have the harmful effects of other blankets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbmasa Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 That is exactly how I burned it in. Then I did matrikote in 3 burns. I didn't actually use quarts, but I had changed the color to solid dark. Maybe cup and a half. ThNks to your input I won't be half done by 6. How sealed does firebrick need to be over vermiculite, sides etc. Is it really sealed because it's wrapped in tight brick or can they just be close?( no angle cut pieces. And thanks again for your input. You got my questions picked out of ramblings. It's very appreciated, course now I got nothing going on 4-6 today. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 If you want to make a fire brick forge then make one. Mixing and mismatching different types of forge never works well, believe me I know. Below is the picture of my no weld, brick pile forge it uses Morgan Thermal Ceramics, K26 insulating fire bricks, they are designed to survive tapid temperature change and are rated to a sustained working temperature of 2,600f. They are rapidly replacing the old 1600f soft insulating fire brick that used to crumble in a couple firings. K26 are cheaper and that was when the old style IFB (Insulating Fire Brick) were available. The pic was taken less than 5 minutes after lighting, someone stuck the piece of steel in right away. It was on the final day of the club's burner and forge build clinic a real madhouse. We built IIRC 34 functioning forges. The interiors were kiln washed with Matrikote. Matrikote and Plistex are ceramic compounds like glaze you do not need to go through a complicated firing sequence. It will air dry in maybe 10-15 minutes, light the burner for a couple minutes to dry the brick underneath then bring it to working temp. Both products have working max temperatures in excess of 3,000f As Buzz and I have told you building the forge correctly, just follow the detailed instructions in the propane forge section of Iforge. A properly built propane forge is as safe as any home built propane burning appliance is going to be. The ceramic fiber is completely encapsulated by the hard refractory and cemented together by the rigidizer. To get a release of fibers you'd have to break the liner out of it by main force, hammer and chisel for example. Regardless, if using Insulwool, the non-persistent refractory blanket ("Non-Persistent" means the material it is made from can be dissolved by the human body without producing dangerous byproducts. Anyway, if the safe stuff is still too scary for you then try a brick pile forge and wear a dust mask when drilling, cutting, filing, etc. the bricks themselves. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 59 minutes ago, hbmasa said: I didn't actually use quarts, but I had changed the color to solid dark. This confuses me. For both the rigidized fiber blanket and the refractories I've used, they actually turn completely white when they are properly fired. With use the forge interior will take on some darker colors from the steel and impurities, but not as a consequence of proper firing sequence in my experience. 1 hour ago, hbmasa said: How sealed does firebrick need to be over vermiculite, sides etc. You're switching gears here. It's best to pick a design that is known to work and stick with the routine developed by people who have successfully used the design. I don't know if you're talking about insulating fire brick or hard fire brick. They are completely different animals as far as their use in a forge goes. When did vermiculite enter the conversation? If you keep bouncing around with all these ideas you'll probably end up confusing yourself and spending far more money than you will if you zero in on something and stick with it. The forge pictured by Frosty is a proven excellent little forge which is very reasonable to build, uses no blanket, and does not require any welding or special tools. If you want to go the brick route it's a good choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbmasa Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 Sorry, I mistook perlite w vermiculite. We always used on the crops mixed with nutrients but always together. My blanket went white after burn in. And seeing special burn. It was very stiff when I covered it well with col. Kept it wet... the forge I did that to is a little sun. Plenty of welding heat. I was putting an 18" 2" cable in it, missed the entrance a little and it stripped off nicely scuplted kol of one hole side. I've got a ton of this cheap plistex ..... That is too much effort and concern over blanket. Coke is no better to breath. My new going idea is to cover soft bricks in kol to keep it up. Use about 2 horizontally on sides and a solid floor of soft bricks. I'm hoping to not have to have bricks on ceiling. I just realized using the perlite as a spacefiller meant mixing it in the wet kol Sorry so long winded When I say cheap plistex it was 25 for 4.5 lbs. No put down of plistex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbmasa Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 I used food coloring in the rigidizer to make sure I got everywhere, I got it with a sprayer til well coated in color, then the blanket burned white. It started its kol life white. Sorry, I'm such a poor typist. State schools... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbmasa Posted February 22 Author Share Posted February 22 Is insowool OK this month? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbmasa Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 I think I'll just hold until I get a better idea of whats going on. Thanks alot for your time and effort everyone. Somebody speaking up earlier could have saved my 2nd tank but hey. Tx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 I've used perlite in homemade refractories - it's not absolutely terrible in a solid refractory such as a casting furnace wall, such as a sand clay mix or the old backyard metalcasting mix with portland cement (do not recommend, it slags out over time) but it wasn't great either. I wouldn't want to mess with it in this kind of application - too melty at high temps. I know it was just a slip of the tongue, but do be careful about substituting vermiculate for perlite in any application. Perlite merely aerates soil, but vermiculite also is hydroscopic - it absorbs water from the soil and air. When heated that can be a disaster, especially in homemade refractories. Not overly crazy about homemade refractory mixes anyways; I get the urge to try them, and have, but they never quite work as well as the real stuff. Best of luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbmasa Posted February 23 Author Share Posted February 23 I couldn't remember what I was buying and got inches away from ordering vermiculite when I bought it but the rare flash of brilliance told me to go reread. Thanks for the head up on both. Now I'm thinking lava rock and kitty litter( a joke) Tx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 So, have you decided to follow ANY of our advice and read the forges 101, picked ONE build plan for a propane tank forge? A couple of the Iforge members who have been about to write you off spent many HOURS of our time answering questions and submitting PROVEN forge plans WITH photos and illustrations YOU have CHOSEN to ignore in favor of what, a youtube video by some . . . person on the internet who came up with some . . . thing s/he THINKS WORKS? Well? And now you make JOKES about our advice, our years building forge liners THAT WORK? Our experience is a JOKE? I think I'll make ONE MORE SUGGESTION TO YOU. Read Forges 101 in the propane forge section of IFORGEIRON. Pick ONE design for a propane tank forge, there are SEVERAL PROVEN PLANS and FOLLOW THE PLANS. That is IT until you stop winging it with crap that has been outdated for a decade or two. Until then I am done with you. PERIOD DOT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 My contribution to this conversation, may help your with your build. https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/61288-my-consolidated-notes-for-new-forge-builders/ I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s. Semper Paratus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hbmasa Posted February 24 Author Share Posted February 24 I got some posts all of the sudden and this wasn't a joke. It was an actualifi member who told me perlitte to begin with. It doesn't mKe sense after sealing something from exposure to not be worried about an 1/8" of visibly opem gap running through kastolite. Then again, im state educated. I am no longer posting on this so don't spend hours anyone on my malady. To those who did help and not try to sell for kaowool, I'm very appreciative and sorry if the kitty litter offended anyone. I very seriously read about it on internet yesterday related to perlite Iron dragon don't know how you found that but that's really good reading. I've not seen it laid so simply. Good reading Tx all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 It is a pinned topic in Gas Forges, a couple of posts down from Forges 101. There is a wealth of information in all the pinned topics of every section. For instance, if you get interested in making knives, you would go to Knife Making and read through the pinned topics first to get an idea about it. I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s. Semper Paratus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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