Jack Hirsch Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 Hello everyone, I was perusing through the Chemical Formulary Volume 2 for some insperation and I came across a interesting composition that I can't seem to wrap my head around. It claims to be super hard alloy of copper and copper sulphate that is hard and durable enough to replace steel in some applications. The composition is: - 1 lb Copper - 2 oz Copper Sulphate - 2 oz salt - 2 oz Borax Copper is made into spall pieces, placed into a crucible and heated, when at melting tempurature the salt, copper sulphate and borax is added. Does anyone understand the chemistry behind this so called alloy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 What kind of salt? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott NC Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Plain old salt according to this patent, if it is of the same source, it is similar. https://patents.google.com/patent/US1943738A/en?oq=1943738 A lot of these old processes and techniques can be quite dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Jack, what is the copyright date of the Chemical Formulary, Vol 2? If this is an older work I would take these kind of claims with a grain of salt (pun intended). Like the internet today there is a lot of questionable claims in some older books. I'm no chemist or metallurgist but I am skeptical. If it was a truly revolutionary copper alloy it would probably be in common use and knowledge. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Thanks Scott, that looks like the formula. I was wondering, copper sulfate is a salt isn't it? Copper has been used as a bearing for centuries, maybe millennia just like babbit. Hard isn't much of a factor, it's the oil that matters. I have to agree with George, claims of amazingness were common in the day. Reading old patents can be entertaining if you can get past the 19th century lay person's use of "legalese," then again that's often the entertaining part. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott NC Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 I thought you were asking about the "salt" ingredient. Yes, copper sulfate is a salt. Evidently, borax is a form of it too. "Borax is a salt (ionic compound), a hydrated borate of sodium, with chemical formula Na 2H 20B 4O 17 often written Na 2B 4O 7·10H2O. It is a colorless crystalline solid, that dissolves in water to make a basic solution." So you have copper, salt, salt and salt. . I'm no chemist either though. Some patent verbage makes you wonder. But it is interesting to read the wilder ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 I was. I'm a long way from a chemist but it read like copper, salt, salt, salt to me too and one was undefined and I was wondering if he meant "table salt" salt. Maybe it was another kind of salt a . . . secret ingredient. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott NC Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Mayby he took out that patent knowing it was malarky. He then waited for all his competitors to go broke finding a similar but better formula that actually worked. Mayby he owned a copper mine or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted January 5, 2023 Share Posted January 5, 2023 Maybe, scam science isn't a new thing today. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Hirsch Posted January 7, 2023 Author Share Posted January 7, 2023 On 1/3/2023 at 10:40 PM, George N. M. said: Jack, what is the copyright date of the Chemical Formulary, Vol 2? If this is an older work I would take these kind of claims with a grain of salt (pun intended). Like the internet today there is a lot of questionable claims in some older books. I'm no chemist or metallurgist but I am skeptical. If it was a truly revolutionary copper alloy it would probably be in common use and knowledge. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Hello, if memory serves it was either late 1930s or early 1940s On 1/4/2023 at 10:38 AM, Scott NC said: Mayby he took out that patent knowing it was malarky. He then waited for all his competitors to go broke finding a similar but better formula that actually worked. Mayby he owned a copper mine or two. Or a salt and borax mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted January 8, 2023 Share Posted January 8, 2023 I'm no chemist either, but, sheesh another but, the salts do add sulphur, borium and oxygen. That's about all the confusion I'm going to add. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott NC Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 I don't advocate alloy experimentation by hobbiests. I had close friend get badly damaged by doing so. And he was bright, intelligent and safety savy. I regret joking around a bit on this thread. On 1/4/2023 at 12:40 AM, Scott NC said: A lot of these old processes and techniques can be quite dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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