Hello everyone hope you all good in health .

I am in the process searching for a 15kw Induction Forge . I have searched read for the past 7-10 days. I have seen several ``Youtube`` videos which i try to avoid if are not from professionals (welders , blacksmiths etc)

So my main question is  . A 15kw 220v will it melt steel in a crucible ? I don't want to cast steel . I want to melt it and then do the annealing and forging process as a normal piece of steel.

I have been reading lately for damascus/wootz/crucible steel and all that triggered the need of the induction heater .

So will it melt the steel ?

If i have said something is stated wrong or mistyped please note that my speak read language is Greek .(Please do correct me )

Have a nice day everyone .

How much steel in a single run?    I would wonder if the speed would interfere  with making Wootz as I believe that the thermocycling does make use of the ramp up and ramp down time for element migration.

Hello Thomas,

We are talking about a kilo or 1.5 kilos of materials .

Am on the edge dropping the idea as am almost ready to melt cast iron with propane .

 

 

That's considered a lot of metal to melt with anything but a commercial system!   I think you will be happier with propane.

Sorry to jump in here, but do you have any idea how much iron a 15kw induction forge could melt, in small batches? 

And I'm right in thinking it is capable of actually melting the steel in a crucible? 

I have one of the 15kw induction forges. They actually draw something more like 7kw continuous and the output on the coil is 800 amps full on, which is at a lower voltage (5?), so you're getting a fraction of the kw at the coil, and then you get a further loss if you're not using something optimized for the coil - which is more of a question of how much. 

Knowing that still doesn't give you your answer. Mine came from a US seller and not from one of the chinese sellers. it's the same basic machine, though I have seen some reviews suggesting wiring issues in some of the imports. All that said, you can check the US Solid page to see if they have a manual for the induction heater I'm talking about - there is one, but I don't know if it had information about a crucible as I don't have or use one with it. I see some of the direct ship imports come with a small crucible, but from now vague memory, the crucibles held a much smaller amount than 1 1/2 kilos and the spec list didn't provide anything that large in terms of metal in the crucible or I'd have remembered it because I'd do that. 

Following up - the manual says 1kilo of smelting copper, gold, silver, etc. Iron and steel aren't mentioned. My sense from using the machine to forge and heat treat would be no. It would take a LONG time for the machine to heat that much metal, too. 

ONLY a timid suggestion with no conviction it would be satisfactory, but the only CHEAP system I know of that would absolutely deliver enough heat would be an arc furnace powered by a welder.

In the past I had an "arc torch", still available as antiques on Ebay that would melt the top of a railroad track into a puddle in less than a minute. Very hard to control and I dunno of any furnace wall that would contain the heat, but it might be a place to start, always being aware of the hazards, which are many.......Joe

I regularly melt 200g batches of steel with my 15kw 220v induction in .5kg graphite crucibles with no issues. I don't know what "Max" is - I haven't needed to enlarge my process for testing purposes. 200g is a big knife or two smaller ones.

Wrapping my head around wootz myself. Melting isn't the issue - it's the slow cooling at solidification... easy in a big insulated furnace, not so much in a open crucible.... I have experimented with slowly ramping down the amps on the induction, or burying things while their still sloppy in vermiculite, or a coffee can lined with kaowool - experiments still continuing. 

The "traditional wootz" guys are super gatekeeper and don't like us induction cowboys - so we're in uncharted territory it seams but I know a lot of guys are super interested in refining the process. Just the fact we can make a custom batch and see it happen before our very eyes is the magic of steel in the palm of your hand!

Don't let the naysayers say it can't be done! Happy melting! 

The "wootz guys" aren't super gate keepers, they have methods that work. Have you read their books? We have one at least that posts here on occasion and he is happy to discuss making wootz. Even ancient descriptions are pretty clear that melting the ores isn't the secret. It's how you melt and cool them. Being able to melt iron and alloying metals quickly is easy. It requires soak time but that isn't the "secret".

You aren't the first to try making wootz with an induction melter and as is clear from your pics you've made NO attempt to control the atmosphere without doing so it is a given fail. There are even wootz guys using induction to make wootz though they tend to complain about the electric bill.

NO, I've never made wootz, blades aren't my thing. I have however read their articles and spoken directly with men who have successfully made wootz type crucible steel, even Mr. Pendray. Though Al was very close with his methods he would talk about them to a degree without details. Once the "secret" broke that is.

I strongly suggest you read some source materials, you've ignored probably THE most critical requirement to succeed.

Frosty The Lucky.

What the heck is wrong with this topic that it reacts such strong responses? I have scoured the internet, I assume same as the original poster and found next to nothing on the topic of induction crucible steel. 

What source material should we be referencing and where might we find it?

I tried joining  the wootz society to ask this question - they say no beginners
I tried joining wootz facebook groups to ask this question - was blocked 
Sharing my "obviously not wootz" induction made steel with dendritic carbide formations got me banned from bladesmith forum
The calculator on wootzsmith is cool but leaves a lot of missing in the whole what to do after it's melted?
I try to be supportive on here and get yelled at by an admin for obvious rookie mistakes 

Feels like gatekeeping big time

Do I know what I am doing? NO 
Is that stopping me? NO




 

Perhaps if you asked nicely maybe some of the makers would tell you what to read. Scouring the internet as a really poor excuse for research, especially for a beginner who doesn't know enough to ask good questions, let alone filter the wheat from the chaff of wannabe ratchet jawing. 

You've been a member of IFI for a bit more than 13 years and of the 13 posts you've made all I recall is angry anti-gate keeper BS. Looking at your content I only see 11 posts as of today so those times you got yelled at also involved having posts removed. The moderators don't yell, they tell you what you did to get moderated. If they feel they have to yell they just 86 said person and block them from rejoining the forum.

Everybody gets moderated once in a while, we all slip up. Sometimes it's just a quiet word, sometimes you have things deleted, I screw up a couple few times a year. Think about being moderated 2 posts our of 13 and what kind of % that is. Hmmmm?

The site rules are pretty straight forward and you had to agree to abide by them when you subscribed. Did you bother to read them?

The information you aren't finding isn't available on the internet in any reliable form. What you can find are the names of people, places, etc. to take to the library and ILL the book though if you subscribe to one of the college level archeology or metallurgy sites you CAN find the original articles written by the scholars who rediscovered a few of the methods of making wootz and other types of early steel. A couple have been posted here, one recently and it was IIRC over 1,000 pages of solid science about an ancient town in England, including the forges, foundry and mines, the whole section of a town. Lots there but you must dig to get the clues to pursue. 

Another post here was about the development of steel in India from Bronze to steel. This too was a scholarly article numbering many hundreds of pages, mostly archeological but with more than enough information to find the detailed information to hopefully reproduce their results. The scholar writing and his many cites were frankly clueless about, smelting, smithing, iron, etc. let alone actually making steel. However they accurately recorded data which is good stuff, even if their conclusions and speculations were in error. Al Pendray spent decades sifting through data, visiting makers, etc. and experimenting before coming up with his method.

Bearing in mind the iron ore deposits used to make wootz were played out a couple few centuries ago but there is enough information to make a fair analog.

When you start looking through the thin sections of wootz pucks, blades, etc. you'll see really high % of dendritic carbon formations mostly in the recycle piles or scrap.

When the experts call you a beginner and actually exclude you. You need to examine your own attitude. As you say, you don't know what you're doing and don't let it stop you. This is a good thing but only to a point. 

Lastly I've been very careful not to yell or jump on you I am talking straight, just like an adult. I've done my best to point out some of your mistakes and offer good advice but it's up to you to do something about it. Ignoring me is an option and that's no skin off my anvil. Yell at me if you wish and I'll stop trying. 

Be well. Frosty. 

 

What do I do to deserve lectures? You are right, every time I have ever tried to interact with an online forum it is a disaster. I jump on far flung topics and get shat on for trying to learn new topics. 13 years as a forum member, a metallurgical degree, close to 30 years as a smith and now the founder of a metal art school teaching blacksmithing full time should count for something? My dirty laundry that people have choose to gatekeep me in the past shouldn't be used as evidence against me - but proof there is something wrong with the equation. Your very tone I think you assumed my lack of experience. Is that racketjawing by your definition? 

I didn't comment on this post with a question but I got handed answers like I am begging for your hard won research? Reread my first comment replying to the original poster. He asked about melting capability of a 15kw induction - I do 200g batches all the time in my 15kw 220v WITHOUT any problems in my open graphite crucible under molten glass. 

Sorry I even mentioned that darn w OO t z word.... Like I said why does it elicit such strong responses?

Happy melting! May your crucible never spring a leak 

Ironjohn, here's a something that may help.   

 

FWIW, I don't see a justification for the response you were getting here ironjohn.  You're trying something new (to you anyway).  You seem to have narrowed down what you believe to be the problem area and are attempting to deal with it.  

From what I could see you have molten glass in your crucible, which should go a long way towards controlling the atmosphere the steel is exposed to.  Dunno.   I follow the wootz discussions on here whenever I see them, but have never attempted it myself.

I guess I'm just saying I hope you continue with your experiments and post the results be they good or bad.

50 minutes ago, Buzzkill said:

FWIW, I don't see a justification for the response you were getting here ironjohn.  You're trying something new (to you anyway).  You seem to have narrowed down what you believe to be the problem area and are attempting to deal with it.  

From what I could see you have molten glass in your crucible, which should go a long way towards controlling the atmosphere the steel is exposed to.  Dunno.   I follow the wootz discussions on here whenever I see them, but have never attempted it myself.

I guess I'm just saying I hope you continue with your experiments and post the results be they good or bad.

Thanks a ton, my curiosity on this subject has been ruinous to my internet reputation over the last 6 months as I mentioned above. Everyone keeps citing my ungrateful attitude as a beginner asking questions...? Which is so far from the truth I don't even know how to respond? The shear fact I am melting steel in a crucible with forgeable results should be indicative of my continued pursuit of these processes. I don't even know what I am going to do with the material, I stopped making knives a couple years ago and teach blacksmithing classes now. It is just a fascinating process I would like to learn more about and is giving me a deeper understanding to my favorite artistic medium; iron



   


   

I wish to offer my sincere apology to John and the entire forum I should keep my mouth shut when I'm in a mood. 

Again I'm sorry.

Frosty The Lucky.

Ironjohn, I'll offer a bit of mild correction before you get jumped on again by a curmudgeon.   You don't have to quote if you're responding to the last post made.

Now, kiss my ring.   Just kidding!