hammerhandsyd Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 hi guys and gals, i was wondering how i could harden my mild steel cause i want to make some knifes out of low carbon and the get em nice high carbon without touching the metal with a hammer any hints methods info? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachingclay Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 you cant unless you have the carbon immulsion and know how to do case hardenning. you cant harden mild steel because there isnt enough carbon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted August 19, 2008 Share Posted August 19, 2008 There is a blueprint by Quenchcrack that may be of value to you. I believe it is bp0078 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 Why not make them from anneald high carbon steel---very soft--- and then heat treat them to be hard and tough? Hardness is not totally based on the ammount of carbon in the steel; but on the heat treat of it. I could take A36 and make a chisel that would cut annealed tool steels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhandsyd Posted August 25, 2008 Author Share Posted August 25, 2008 thanks rich ill take peek at that print but thomas how do i treat the steel to get it hard ness back, quench it or would that jus crap the metal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 25, 2008 Share Posted August 25, 2008 True mild steel doesn't harden by quenching; it doesn't have enough carbon in it. You could try to make blister steel from it by heating it in a sealed pipe full of powdered charcoal, the real stuff not briquettes, heat it to a nice cherry red for 6 hours or so and then take out clean up---trying not to grind through the case and then heat and wuench and temper. Why not make them from a carbon steel to start with? Makes heat treat so much simplier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhandsyd Posted August 28, 2008 Author Share Posted August 28, 2008 im thinkin that the carbon conntent of my knifes is gona be high, tohigh for file sharpen and its also gona have some funky shapes and curls Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Please *read* my posts; I have said that you can take very high carbon steel and make it quite soft by annealing---the carbon content has very little to do with how hard it is without factoring in the heat treat. For example I can take a 50 point steel and harden it so hard it will cut an 150 point steel if the 150 point steel isn't hardened to the same degree---even though the 150 point steel has 3 times the carbon in it! If you start with low carbon steel you end up with low carbon steel (unless you do very expensive and esoteric processes on it to increase the carbon content). Low carbon steel will not produce a good edge no matter how you heat or quench it. So what steel are you planning to start with? If you cannot understand how this works you will be a lot happier *not* making knives until you do understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhandsyd Posted August 28, 2008 Author Share Posted August 28, 2008 thomas i do read your posts, u gota under stand that 50 piont carbon means squat to me, im a newbie and i have very little knowledge of smithing terms, im making spike knifes and spear heads for a com, the guy wants em hard and to hold edges while shearing bronze. i know thr amount of carbon in steel dose not determin how hard the metal is, it (i think) means how hard it can get. i dont wanna peev you and i aint gona argue cause im a neophite. syd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Caradoc Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 He is talking about medium carbon steel. Ask your local steel suplier and they will know what you are talking about. What are you planning to cut with them? what is com? do you meen con as in convention? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhandsyd Posted August 28, 2008 Author Share Posted August 28, 2008 well i meant com short for commission, i dont ask what my people want em for unless its gona be for food deco or blades, he said it needs to be sharp enough to cut bronze. well i dont realy have a steel suppplier cause most of my metal is old scrap and i dont use rebar so im never gona go to the bar factory. my "teacher dosnt really know the carbon point of metal cause he never makes knifes and when he dose its just outa files oh and by the by do any of you know bill senseny if you do could you direct me to his email or phone #? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt87 Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 The quick-and-dirty: the carbon content of a piece of steel varies between 0.2% and 2.2% by weight. Above that it's cast iron, below that it's wrought/bloomery/puddled iron. Because even a small change in carbon content will drastically affect the properties of the steel, the carbon content is often expressed in points, one point being one hundredth of a percent, i.e. 1/10000. Thus a medium carbon steel might be 0.5% carbon by weight, AKA a 50-point steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Try automotive coil or leaf springs; usually easy to find them thrown out or cheap at a good mechanic's shop. They are often around 5160 steel and will harden much better than a RR spike, the "high carbon" RR spikes have at most 30 points of carbon in them and that is the boundry between low carbon and medium carbon steel. 5160 has 60 points carbon and so starts twice as high! Files are high carbon Forge not letting it get too hot---sparking or too cold---don't hammer it if it's not glowing. Do the rough stock removal shaping. Then normalize it a couple of times and then heat to non-magnetic and quench in warm oil, take out when cool and clean it up and immediately draw temper. I would go with peacock to light blue unless he has to have it harder, then repeat the heat treat and draw to dark straw. Note that new smiths don't start out with knives; they learn the basics first as forging the higher carbon steels is harder and trickier, forging range is much reduced, stress concentrators, decarburization, heat treat issues, all make blade making an "advanced" form of smitthing. You can always tell him "Hey I don't know how to do that yet". Nothing wrong with starting out---unless you try to do stuff you don't know enough about. Then it becomes very frustrating and not very fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 28, 2008 Share Posted August 28, 2008 Actually it's not the carbon content that identifies Wrought Iron as there are WI derrived steels either natural ones from high carbon blooms or artificial ones like blister and shear steels. What makes wrought iron wrought iron is the presence of ferrous silicate spicules in the iron matrix. Now most wrought iron is very low in carbon; but not all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhandsyd Posted August 30, 2008 Author Share Posted August 30, 2008 well thomas any tip for hardening and tempering, i think ill do that. i dont have any torch cept a puny 10'' tall gas one. ill try a widling knife with file steel so ill follow that oil quench thingy(is linseed ok or do i have to use some crude oil thing?) dose any one know of a cheap cuting torch? i dont care if it dosnt cut well as long as i can use it for tempering and bending Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 hammerhandsyd: Please message me with your email address and I will send you about 20 or so pages in MS Word format on the properties of various junk yard steels and info on hardening and tempering various steels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericthered Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Hi Guys, I need to make a few tools myself. Drawknife, travisher, froe, spokeshaves, and some hardys of various intended duties. I'd love to make some hammers as well but that luxury down a way on the "to do" list. Obviously the froe will need to be somewhat tougher to withstand the blows from a mallet while the shaving tools merely need to hold an edge during the duty cycle, preferably a razor sharp one. I don't mind purchasing "new" steel if it means ending up with a superior product. Any suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericthered Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Woody, If you don't mind, cc me with that list as well: seniorasi@gmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenchcrack Posted November 24, 2008 Share Posted November 24, 2008 Spring steel does a nice job at being tough and holding an edge. There is a BP for a drawknife, and I have made several that work very well. It also makes good froes. I have several large coil springs (1" thick turns) from a Railroad car that, while difficult to forge by hand, makes dandy tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy seale Posted November 25, 2008 Share Posted November 25, 2008 i have made a draw knife out of a large bearing race, works well but wouldn't impact it with a hammer, but is a goodun, for a froe i think i'd use leaf spring, but then again i may be talking out of turn, good luck and post pixs, jimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 brand new to the site. I am trying to figure it all out, quenching,carbon,... what I am trying to do is make new digging teeth for my post hole digger on my tractor. nothing fancy, don't have a mill or lathe just a hand grinder. I don't want to pay $40 bucks everytime I turn around for a new set of auger teeth. what holds up to dirt? cold rolled does not. the leaf spring thing sounded good and cheap. can that be sharpened and then hardened? how's that work.. Thanks, Tim:confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Hard = Brittle; how rocky is it where you're at? Using high carbon steel allows you to harden them for abrasion resistance so they will last longer *HOWEVER* it is much harder to weld High C steel without messing up the heat treat. Are these teeth bolted on? If so go for it! If they are welded on look into making them from AR steel---abrasion resistant steel---like is used for road grader blades---that are often discarded free when they get worn down. AR steel will still need to be welded with correct proceedure but should be a tad less picky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TASMITH Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 hammerhandsyd, When you post a question in these forums you will probably receive answers from a number of people with a range of experience and knowledge. If it is for someone like yourself that is just starting out we try and simplify explanations and recommendations for you. Quite often it may read as someone being 'peeved' but such is not the case. If you read a reply and don't quite understand what was said ask the poster to clarify it for you. We all help one another any way we can and sometimes it will be better for you to ask for a place to get more information from. There are thousands of threads on this forum, covering just about any topic and learning to do a search on it will lead you to a world of information. A lot of questions asked by 'Newbies' have been posted many times before, however that does not stop us from repeating the answers and /or pointing you toward a thread posted with the same question with the answers already posted. This is a tremendous resource site and the answers given come from people with years of experience and are the greatest bunch of people that you will meet anywhere, all willing to share with one another. Just take the time to read and research and by all means post your questions and learn from some of the best. Welcome to the site! Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Timothy, Do you have access to a welder? Not sure of your welding experience but properly applied, there are some Hard Facing rods on the market that are typically used specifically for the purpose you are refering to as well as for repairing digging teeth on loaders and such. The welding tech were I used to work told me about a rod (Sorry, I don't know what its called) that yeided a bead so hard that it was difficult to grind and edge on it. It was seemingly immune to any commercial abrasives. Check with your welding supplier. Hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyvern Posted March 15, 2009 Share Posted March 15, 2009 Dodge is right about the rods but the thickness of the auger teeth or blade has to hold up to the material being dug and hardfacing something as thin as paper will only last until the material its on buckles under pressure the rods require no hardening go to your local rock quarry and ask what kind of rods they use they may give or sell you some they use them for wear surfaces in crushers all the time don't sharpen to thinly though because the weld can snap off Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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