Scrolling Tongs

[Red Shed Forge]

I needed a pair of scrolling tongs for some desk legs I have been working on. I have some 3/16" x 2" flat stock scrolls that will be attached to the legs; my hope is that these tongs will help me refine the imperfect scrolls. These are the third pair of tongs I have ever forged. I have yet to test them and at face value, they could certainly use some improvements in a few areas, but they feel sturdy and comfortable in my hand.

I learned a lot along the way in regards to number of heats used, hammer techniques and control, and overall confidence in my abilities. They are forged from 5/8" high carbon sucker rod. They are 11 1/2" from the tine tips to bottom of the reins. The reins span 3" in width. I drew one of the reins a bit thinner than the other and my rivet could be bulkier; I plan to improve on these two aspects on my next tong forge.  

[ThomasPowers]

All the sucker rod I've seen is medium carbon---where did you find the high carbon stuff?  They are going for tough not brittle as dropping the downhole pump a thousand or more feet down is an expensive proposition!

A scrolling wrench might be handier than scrolling tongs for wider stock and definitely for heavier stock!

[Red Shed Forge]

I posted last year in September when it "Followed Me Home", and a response I got advised that it was sucker rod:

However, my FIL who gave it to me, acquired it from a deceased neighbor who in life had no known (to my FIL) connection to well pumping. He was an electrician and collector of much scrap steel in south-western Kentucky, so it is difficult to pinpoint from where it originated exactly. It certainly sparks and forges like HC steel (in my limited experience), so maybe it is related to an electrician's vocation, rather than sucker rod, if most is MC like you say. 

I do have a small, poorly forged scrolling wrench and hardy bick to assist in tweaking the scrolls as well. I made the tines on these tongs 2 1/2" long with the thought that their length would be helpful on the wide stock. Maybe it's just me, but I also did not find it too difficult to move with a smaller pair of needle-nose pliers, so I assumed mine would do an even better job. We will see. 

[ThomasPowers]

I tend to go from needle nose to a wrench.  I do need to make a couple larger wrenches for some projects coming up...

[Red Shed Forge]

Well now I want some better wrenches too! Lol. I've got some sections of 7/8" round stock that I believe was used as canopy tent stakes that might work..? It was painted yellow at one point. IIRC, they have some crowning at one end from what I assume is damage from hammer blows. Too soft? 

[JHCC]

One of the most important things in scrolling tongs is having enough mass in the bosses and a heavy enough rivet to withstand the twisting forces that scrolling will place on them.

I've got two pairs of scrolling tongs made according to the method in this video from the New England School of Metalwork:

 

[Red Shed Forge]

Thank you for sharing that video, John. Very helpful. I actually made mine based on a Joey van der Steeg video where he used 3/4" round spring steel. And thank you for mentioning the bosses as I am wary of mine for the reason you mention; they are slightly more than half the thickness of those in that video. I'll keep this in mind when approaching my next pair. Hopefully they don't give when I use them on my current scrolls.

[rockstar.esq]

Building a bit on JHCC's point, I experimented with forging a box joint instead of the overlap hinge.  Scrolling pliers / needle nose are a natural for this because the jaws are generally slender and tapered which makes it easier to slide them through the punched slot.  The resulting joint has three planes applying shear force against the rivet, which makes them very strong for twisting applications.  I was very surprised to discover that a sorta-well formed box joint will work without a rivet.

Forging the box joint is a bit more complicated than the half-lap.  For my experiment, I used some mild steel to make the slitter, and drift.  The drift wants to be 1/3 the thickness of your hinge joint.  I used the drift as a forging bolster when setting down the center boss.  I didn't have a set hammer, so I just used some short square stock as a substitute.

Aside from the "special" tools, the box joint wasn't too hard to forge.  I was pretty stressed about passing the inner boss through the  opened outer boss, but it wasn't as difficult as I imagined it would be.  If I had to do it again, I would have used a lighter touch closing the outer bosses because the cold central boss acted like a drift.

 

[Francis Trez Cole]

The video is great, But you never hit the flat side of the boss with the hammer. The anvil will help make the boss flat. Second I would use a longer rivet to make a a bigger head. Helps keep them strong when twisting. Remember the forge to hold the metal is in you hand the longer the reins the more leverage you have.

[Red Shed Forge]

Rockstar.esq,

That process certainly does seem more complicated than the half-lap. Also sounds like you've got it down! I've seen riveted box joint tongs but never seen them forged out, I'll look into some videos. If you have a picture of yours that would be cool to see after the nice visual you gave of the process. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Red Shed Forge
Spelling error

[rockstar.esq]

Red Shed,

Sorry, I don't have any pictures handy.  I did realize that I forgot to mention something.  Once the slot is formed for the outer bosses, the whole thing needs to be opened up to allow the other jaw to pass through.  I forged everything out of 1/2" square stock, so I took a short section and ground two tapers on it such that the "sharp" end was across corners, and the tapered flats ended at the other corners.  That pushes the opening to where parent stock can fit through diagonally, which makes a passage that's bigger across than the jaw, or the central boss.  My "opening drift" was tapered over three inches or so in an attempt to reduce the friction on the inside of the outer bosses.  The goal is to open the slot, not forge the interior.  In hindsight, it would have probably been smart to heat the outer bosses and drive the jaw back towards the handle like I was upsetting them as I used the opening drift.  

Once you've got the four tools; Slitter, drift, set punch, opening drift,  it's really not too difficult to forge.  That being said, I'm basing that on square parent stock, which is large enough to forge, yet small enough that slot punching is feasible.  Again, mostly for tongs and pliers used for twisting. If any width dimension to the jaws is bigger than the parent stock, you'd probably have to join halves by passing the center boss part through handle end first.

 

 

 

[Red Shed Forge]

No worries about the pictures. Makes sense. And I think I would prefer the route you took with the drift for opening the slot, as I see a small potential for the outer bosses to bow either in or out with the upsetting approach. The drift also gives you the exact width you are going for. And even if you somehow marred the inside of the boss, you could use it as a flatter as you mentioned earlier in the process.  

[rockstar.esq]

Red Shed,  I forgot to mention that I didn't even try to hot punch the bosses for a rivet.  My plan was to get both halves assembled, then drill it.  Although my bosses were far from perfect, I discovered that the tongs didn't actually need a rivet to work properly.

If I did install a hinge pin, I'd probably drill a hole, then chamfer the outer bosses, so I could lightly upset a pin to fill the chamfer on either side.

[Red Shed Forge]

I wondered how that might have been done as a hot punch. Would you use the drift as a bolster in that case? 

If drilling: do you mean you would put a chamfer on the inside of the hole of the outer bosses? 

[rockstar.esq]

Red Shed,

I really wouldn't recommend trying to hot punch them.  I would imagine that your drift would need to have a punch sized hole in it to shear the slug.  That might be tricky to align perfectly with it stuck in the middle of the slot.

I'm recommending that you assemble the whole joint before worrying about the pin at all.  At that point, if you wanted to install a hinge pin, I'd recommend drilling through the whole joint, then chamfering the outer sides of the outer bosses.  That would give a bit of room to lightly upset the pin on each side, thereby keeping the pin from falling out.  With a box joint, there's no need to tightly rivet with large heads like a half-lap joint.

 

[Red Shed Forge]

Gotcha, thanks!

[JHCC]

On 3/4/2021 at 8:17 PM, Francis Trez Cole said:

Second I would use a longer rivet to make a a bigger head. Helps keep them strong when twisting.

Agreed, and that's how I made my two pairs.