deepwater Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 I've found a nice supply of BZN's 3000f insulated fire brick. I've been using them for my small brick pile forge and they seem to be holding up well. I'd like to try some forge welding and wondering how they will hold up? I've read a few people here, Frosty especially, mention using the Thermal Ceramics K26 bricks and that they are less susceptible to borax flux damage. Reading around here it seems that higher Alumina and lower Silica percentages are what matter. I've included a link to the BZN page describing their IFB specifications. Commercial link removed Thermal ceramics data is available in and easy to find pdf, but not sure if I can post it here. Short version, k26 percents are 48% alumina, 36% silica. BZN 3000F are 70% alumina, 28% silica. I've looked up castolite 30, but it is a vastly different makeup and while all the words are familiar, I'm not qualified to compare anything. So, thoughts on how the BZN would holdup to borax flux? I could just try, but I don't want to waste time, money or bricks if it's a guaranteed failure. Thanks all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted May 17, 2020 Author Share Posted May 17, 2020 Sorry for apparently posting a commercial link. I didn't see it as anything being for sale, it was a direct link to their specification page only. No way to buy it that way. I figured if I was asking people for their opinion on a brick it was only polite to not make them hunt around the internet looking for the pertinent data. My apologies if that was inappropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 Yeah, shame on you. tsk tsk. It's a learning curve. you can post a site name and we'll look it up if we're interested. Marketers are getting slipperier I've logged onto sites to take a look around, not seen an ad or such but the next time I turned my computer on discovered I'd opted into spam marketing. In truth I didn't know I had to opt out after visiting the site. I tend to swear to NEVER buy a product aggressively marketed. That's me though. We're always interested in new refractories. Someone here was talking about buying zirconia IFBs, expensive but pretty bullet proof. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 The spam feature of marketing is one reason we do not allow the commercial links. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted May 17, 2020 Author Share Posted May 17, 2020 4 hours ago, Frosty said: We're always interested in new refractories. Someone here was talking about buying zirconia IFBs, expensive but pretty bullet proof. My apologies. It took me a bit of searching to find the right page of info, was just trying to make it easier for people who might try to help me. I get the spam issue though. I'll add that to my list of rules I didn't find. Saw one saying not to link to sales pages..... But I'll stop burying my actual question again. Frosty, have I read correctly that your use the k26 bricks with flux and they hold up? Am I right in guessing it's the higher alumina and lower silica that allows this, if correct? If that is all true and I've read you correctly, then the bricks I have should work fine too. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted May 20, 2020 Author Share Posted May 20, 2020 I tried some 20 mule team borax as flux yesterday. I intentionally let about 1.5 teaspoons of the borax go into the brick. I had the forge at welding temps (and did my first two successful forge welds ever in the process, using sucker rod drawn down to about 1/8" flats and well cleaned... But I digress ) for about an hour. Today I had it up to temp for about 2 more hours while I made some tongs. This photo is after all that time. The flux worked down into the brick a touch. I can feel a depression with my finger, maybe 1/32" deep. That area already had minor surface damage and some cracking, hence I used it to experiment. I have no base on what is normal but if that's all it does I'm not worried for now. This area is right under the flame. It doesn't seem to be increasing in size or depth with time. Scrapped some molten flux at welding temp onto some scrap brick outside the forge and it didn't eat in at all. It does bond very strongly to the brick. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 31, 2020 Share Posted May 31, 2020 That looks about right, I believe the dark color is iron oxide dissolved in the flux. Just dripping molten borax on regular fire brick doesn't do much but stick but it will erode in a forge. For the club forge build workshop. We made single 1/2" T burner K-26 forges with bolt together angle iron frames, painted the interiors with Plistex 900 and they're pretty bullet proof so far. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted June 1, 2020 Author Share Posted June 1, 2020 16 hours ago, Frosty said: That looks about right, I believe the dark color is iron oxide dissolved in the flux. Just dripping molten borax on regular fire brick doesn't do much but stick but it will erode in a forge Thanks. That spot is actually in the forge directly under the main flame. I've put at least another 10 hours of burn time in it, mostly in 2-3 hour chunks, and the flux spot hasn't changed or deepened. At this point the flux is likely well mixed with oxides and little bits of scale etc that have found there way in a some point. I'm quite happy with this little forge still. It's taught me a lot and is working beautifully with your 1/2" T design. The length is no problem but if /when I build it's replacement I see I'll want something a bit wider for the kind of things I like and want to do. I'm finding I really enjoy the decorative scroll/artistic side result as much as knives. Thanks for all your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 You're welcome, It's my pleasure. As funny as it sounds it's probably more practical to have 2-3 propane forges from small to large than try to make a too large forge work for everything. Keep us in the loop with what you're doing. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted June 1, 2020 Author Share Posted June 1, 2020 I agree. By bigger I was thinking more common size using 20# propane tank or similar. I think I'd go with the D shape, and burners from the side, though I know myself and likely a ribbon burner like yours is in my future, haha. That's a long way off though, likely after my next move. More immediate project is a smaller propane hand torch for spot heating things. Need to start doing some research on that. Any recommendations on a starting point? Thinking a 3/8" version of one of the common designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 Sure. I'd buy a hand torch. Making them much smaller than 1/2" passes the point of diminishing returns. I can't make a 3/8" that works as well as a Bernzomatic and if I use Mapp then there's no competition. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted June 1, 2020 Author Share Posted June 1, 2020 49 minutes ago, Frosty said: Sure. I'd buy a hand torch. Making them much smaller than 1/2" passes the point of diminishing returns. I can't make a 3/8" that works as well as a Bernzomatic and if I use Mapp then there's no competition. Frosty The Lucky. That's too bad. The benzomatics I have won't get hot enough to heat up much and the bigger ones get expensive fast. I was hoping I could get $15 in parts to work by stealing the regulator and hose from the forge when I need it. This isn't something I need often. Oh well, back to the drawing board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 I should've said I couldn't make and tune a 3/8" burner that'd complete with a Bernzomatic in anything like a reasonable amount of time. If I needed more than a BOmatic could provide I'd use the soldering torch that hooks to a propane tank I bought when we were building the house. More BTU wise but you have to put the pencil tip on it for more heat. If you run MAPP it's much hotter. I'm not a small burner guy, I'm sure I can make one but I know it'd take ME longer than I want to invest. Mike on the other hand has perfected the builds and I am sure can put one together in a much more reasonable time. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 I understand that. I'm trying to find an economical way to spot heat steel up to 1/4 or 3/8 for bends and light scroll work, as well as random house/shop/farm jobs. In a perfect world I'd get an oxy/act setup but this isn't a perfect world, sadly. I might take the time and try a Mikey build or if I've got the right fittings around maybe experiment with your style. Even if it fails I enjoy the learning process. I don't need longterm efficiency, juts quick brute force heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 I keep envisioning some way to make a little clam shell forge to close on the spot you want to heat. Maybe something like a pair of tongs with an insulated clam shell bits and the burner mounted on one half. 1/4 turn valve / Thumb switch and piezoelectric igniter. Hmmmmm. Interchangeable clam shells for different diameter and length heats. Dang, this is going to be in my head like a catchy jingle! I see tools! I know you can buy 3/8" x 1/2" Ts but you'll have to get with Mike for the jet size. I believe he's using ink jet printer jets. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 At that point I feel like induction is the way to go. Though I really like your idea. Mikey recently suggested to me the printer nozzles from 3D printers. Off to do some reading.. Thanks buddy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Oh yeah, induction forges make me giddy. Yeah, that's it 3d printer nozzles. My pleasure, had a good time. Maybe long visegrips for the clam shell forgelet? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 Forgelet! You have put some thought into it! I honestly like the induction idea but without an unreasonably large size it seems only useful with specific needs and sizes. The idea of using a smaller burner and a way of isolating the heat in a forge kind of way is very cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 I see things and this one was pretty basic, worked out a couple problems between posts. Without experimenting I think vise grips would be easier to use. About needing to work an area as a down side to induction heat. Aren't we talking about a burner to heat small things? If/when I finally come up with an induction forge I'll be buying copper tube by the case. Heating large areas is largely a matter of moving a banjo wand over the surface or moving the work under/between. I've been thinking about induction forges a long time, I just can't afford one. <sigh> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 1 hour ago, Frosty said: I've been thinking about induction forges a long time, I just can't afford one. <sigh> I have no experience with induction anything though I have a basic understanding of the principal. Small ones, say up to a few inches across and capable of heating an inch or so of thickeness a few inches long arm to be coming onto the cheap ebay /Chinese market. Last time I cans across them the price was scary cheap. I wouldn't trust the scary cheap stuff but that tells me the technology might be sound enough to build your own for a reasonable cost, providing you have some electronics experience experience. I'm sure I've seen a few people in the 'net use old microwave transformers as a base. Again, no experience and everything has been done both good and cheap on the net if you look around enough. Near as I can tell most of those cool inventions are kept b right next to that pot of gold I misplaced at the end if the rainbow. Still, having your own induction unit may not be as our if reach as you think. As for my small burner problem, I simply threw together another 1/2" T. A bell reduce in had laying around is doing eh, ok, as a flare. I can heat small areas on but I know I'm not being very efficient. If I could find a way to shape the flame a bit better I think I'd be satisfied. Sadly, I have nothing laying around to make a sleeve for a flare, though an insanely quick test with some aluminum showed a much better and more concentrated flame. If I only had a piece of 3/4 pipe laying around I'd be golden Any tips to further shape and concentrate the flame aside from just a straight sleeve /thread protector/coupler? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Make a multiple outlet burners of whatever shape you need. A ring or close C shaped burner with all the outlets facing a central point for rod or small stock to get you thinking along those lines. Keep the various shapes in/on an index and just swap them on the inducer. hmmmm? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 In an imperfect world have you looked into oxy-propane with a gas saver? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Like the Harris oxy propane set? I have the All States version from decades ago, before Lyle passed away and the kids let the patents lapse. You don't think putting a 1/4 turn thumb valve on the visegrip miniforge thingy was MY idea did you? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Folks keep forgetting that there is an intermediate step available before Acetylene. At the local scrapyard they have a dedicated car that carries a large LOX tank and a 100# Propane tank just for cutting. I've seen armour makers using oxy propane rosebuds for heating sheet metal as they work it. You can't weld with it but it cuts and heats excellently! (And most folks seem to do electric welding these days anyway...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deepwater Posted June 2, 2020 Author Share Posted June 2, 2020 Oxy/propane or oxy/acetylene are the obvious best choices. I miss my old o/a as much as I miss my welder, lathe, and whole shop. What I was hoping for was something good enough to heat small areas of reasonably sized stock for scrolling, adjusting and cooking on wax/BLO. A portable 1/2 was easy to make with parts I mostly had on hand and is close to what I want. Actually, it works fine I just want to push its capabilites a little further. It certainly puts out enough heat to do what I want, but the bushy flame is a bit spread out and wasteful of time and resources. I feel like if I could shape the flame better, more like a plumbers' torch or brazing tip, sharper and more pencil like, that this would work great for my needs? Stainless steel sink drainer screen fit in the end of the burner tube? Plate with several large holes? I feel like bunsen burners and plumber torches often have those, maybe that's the answer? I don't happen to have any of that laying around but if it could work I'm happy to grab it and experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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