Leaf hook issues

[easilyconfused]

So far I've had nothing by problems with leaf hooks I've been making. I've had 4 stems snap by either twisting too much and creating a cold shut or the neck getting too thin. However, both of the ones that were successful have cracks right at the transition from the stem and leaf that I assume are from working too cold. The metal is good mild steel from the local welding shop about 3/8-7/16 round.

I'm trying to make wide leaves by upsetting the rod following necking the bar down. I then crosspeen the leaf out and thin out the stem. Once that's done, I have both tried dishing the leaf first followed by making the rest of the hook, and vise versa. Sometimes I notice the cracks and weakening from twisting before finishing the hook and other times it's at the point of bending the stem and adjusting the hook. I'm trying to figure out how I can avoid the neck snapping and the cracks forming. Any tips on order of operation or ways to avoid problems?

[Frosty]

Doesn't sound like mild steel to me.

A couple things to try:
3/8" sq rather than rd.

Upset before doing anything else. OR fold and weld the end for the leaf.

Then draw the shank down. (No tapers or points yet)

Then twist.

Then forge the transition.

Then the leaf.

Then the point for the hook.

Then turn the finial and then the hook. (if you don't get the finial backwards at least once per session you ain't HUMAN!)

That's the sequence I use anyway.

Try doing simpler hooks to start. Practice your twists in "S" or drive hooks till you get it figured out. Keep your leaf hooks with untwisted shanks.

Once you get each step down combine them one at a time till you have the hooks you want.

Frosty

[Dave Hammer]

If you are using the edge of the anvil with half-faced blows to neck down for the stem, be sure you have a reasonably-radiused edge to do it on. I was having similiar (cracking and breaking) problems with the stems on leaves I was making because the transition was too much of a right angle. I solved my problem by using a more-radiused edge and also leaving the leaf-stem transition thicker until most of the rest of the work was done. If I feel that the stem is too thick near the leaf, I thin it a little with direct hammer blows before I bend it to the shape I like.

[Doug C]

Have you got a picture of one? I would be interested in trying to make a few.

[unkle spike]

Most of the time I have found cracking from working too cold. One of the first leaves I made turned out really nice, only to have the leaf fall off while working the stem...

[Mills]

I had cracks develop doing a bunch of snub end scrolls, kinda the same description as yours. I was letting the necked area get too cold as I was drawing the rest of the taper. may be something similar?

[Don A]

"Good mild steel" is a toss-up these days, unless you specifically ordered 1018 or something.

The usual hot-rolled welding shop steel is A-36, and it can have a lot of variance.
(All those crushed cars and scrap we're selling to China... well, that's whay you're getting.)

I have found that too many heats will kill you with cracks in the problem areas. Fewer heats will help with the cracking.

Don

[rlarkin]

I make a lot of BBQ flippers (pig tails) with a leaf on the handle, from 1/4" cold rolled.
the only way I can keep the leaf on is to neck it about 1" down, then round the stem for about 8" to form the handle, then point the 1" and peen out the leaf.
If I dont do the leaf last, it breaks off every time.

[easilyconfused]

Thanks guys, I'll try the hints. I've made many other hooks and leaf key chains too that haven't been like this. I think Mills may be onto something though about the neck just getting too cold at the transition during other parts. I'm also wondering, as I thought about when I make my keychains, maybe I'm thinning the transition down too soon before working the leaf, ie. veining and dishing.

[MRobb]

Pictures would help. As the saying goes, "A picture is worth a thousand words".

It does sound like the metal may have lost too much heat though. Just my 2 cents.

[easilyconfused]

I would post pics but the family camera is on vacation with my sister for the summer. I'm thinking the same thing. I'm going to try making the hook end first and then either the leaf followed by tapering the stem completely or taper the stem further down the hook a bit followed by making the leaf and finishing the stem to maintain the width for longer.

[easilyconfused]

Finally got some pics. After twice as many failed attempts that will become other, smaller hooks, I have 3 out of 5 done. Here are the pics of my problems. The first two I started with the leaf, then the taper and then the hook end. The latest one I did the opposite way and got the same results. The first two are the ones with the leafs running off to the sides and the latest is the one with the leaf running along the hook. The neck on it wound up almost too thin but the girl friend told me it was good enough and I don't have enough time on the farm to work on them so it got passed for this set of hooks. Don't ask me how I got the bronze brown colour on it, I left it in vinegar and salt for a few days then wire brushed it with a hand brush, washed and dried off in the oven before applying a clear metal spray paint when cool.

[rlarkin]

I see a couple possibilities.
1) Working it too cold. Keep it HOT, HOT, HOT.
2) Over working the metal.
3) Poor quality of steel.

This is the way mine look befor finishing.
1/4" cold rolled square. Necked down about 1" from the end, then rounded out for about 8". The smallest area at the base of the leaf is about 3/16.
These are BBQ tools, and get a lot of use. Have not had one break yet. (buy the customers anyway.)
The actual leaf is peened down and shaped last to about 3/32 thick.

[NateDJ]

the only way I can keep the leaf on is to neck it about 1" down, then round the stem for about 8" to form the handle, then point the 1" and peen out the leaf.
If I dont do the leaf last, it breaks off every time.

Same here, especially if I am making a rolled / Russian rose, but almost anything I hammer thin will have a brittle point at the neck and if I do not do the neck and the first 1.5 hammer faces (a measurement devised in Nates School of ''Gona miss dat and hit where you don wana'') away from the thinned piece I will most always break it off.

I am sure that after a few years of hammer practice I will be able to control my hammer well enough to keep from breaking it but this is currently the only thing that works for me.

[primtechsmith]

I have had the same issues in my explorations of my leaf making. I have had a couple of suggestions that have worked out quite well for me.

1. Work the piece hot, and stop early. When it goes cold it becomes more brittle and the vibrations will take its toll. It is kind of like bending a paper clip back and forth...small cracks begin to appear and then it finally breaks off. When hammering out the stems the end of the leaf is out there bouncing and vibrating around...

2. Leave the stem thicker at the leaf and thing that out last. This sometimes keeps the stress down.

3. The best thing for me so far has come from an instructor who lives around here. He told me to quench up to the point where I am working. It will harden it enough until you are done. That has been a saving grace for me...

3. Watch for cold shuts. I have to be really careful when I make them on the edge of the anvil because admitedly my hammer control is not as great as I would want it to be. A misplaced blow in creating the shoulder for the leaf can result in a lot of frustrations. I use a c frame guilltone tool to do all my leaves now.

I hope this helps. In no way do I admit to know what I am talking about, these are just some things I have been told when making leaves and have helped. Which if you ask Mike I make and put on everything. Truth hurts!! HA!

Peyton