Hamon

[Olorin]

I have a tanto that I have forged out, the grinding is still done but I'm looking to anneal it and re-temper it (The refractory cement I used didn't seem to work very well as a clay for a clay temper). I would really like to make a hamon on this blade as it's a gift for my sensei. I was looking to buy the Rutland Furnace Cement which is smoother than the clunky cement I was using before. Any ideas on any of this? Clay tempering or otherwise?

 

Thanks!

[Steve Sells]

tempering wont give a hamon, I use rutland for the hardening quench to give one, but that also depends on the steel and quenchant used

[Olorin]

Right heat treat, that's what I meant. I see it called a temper line all over the place and I get the two mixed up sometimes. I usually quench into water (This time into nearly boiling water) and I'm using a piece of mid-high carbon steel round-stock. I'm not sure about the exact material.

[Steve Sells]

low Mn helps and boiling is way too hot

[Olorin]

What temp. would you suggest?

 

[Steve Sells]

same Temp as I already wrote in the  pinned posts about heat treating,  about 120F, you may want to read it

[Olorin]

Thanks, that helps a lot. I had heard from someone that for modern steel you should use near to boiling water. I guess that was incorrect. But thanks for the tip!

[ThomasPowers]

Which modern steel? As stated that comment could be answered: Yes, No, Maybe.

[Olorin]

I'm not sure what kind of steel it is. I found it in my basement (we have lots of random materials lying around, no one knows where they come from). It's a piece of hardenable round stock the body of which was about three and a half feet long. Other than that I don't know.

[ThomasPowers]

Would be a lot easier if you knew it was an alloy that is easy to create hamons with!

[Steve Sells]

then you may never get hamon

[Olorin]

I think I figured out why it didn't work. The "clay" that I was using during the quench crumbled and broke off almost immediately after touching the water, it wasn't designed to cling to the metal and likely caused hardening and softening in random places where some chunks stayed on and some didn't. (BTW the blade cracked all over the place when I tried to anneal it). I am just a novice bladesmith so I'm still trying to figure everything out. Thanks for all the help!

[Steve Sells]

How could a blade crack from annealing? and why would you still try to clay and harden it if it was cracked all over?

[Frosty]

I know it sounded like it Steve but I don't think he meant what it sounded like in that last post. 

Olorin: You're asking for specific answers but you don't know enough to know what to ask. Save yourself a LOT of extra work and many failures by buying a known blade steel and read how to: forge, grind, and heat treat THAT steel. I'd recommend a more forgiving steel than say 1090, 1070 won't make a max retention edge but it'll cut you slack in the heat treat and you can get some experience with success rather than failures. Hmmmm?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Olorin]

I never would have tried quenching it if I had seen cracks all over it, I checked before applying clay to make sure, but I think it may have been the breaking off of the "clay" and cooling at random points on the blade hardening in random spots that caused the structure to lose strength and crack. I could be wrong though, I'm not a metallurgist. I did also make the mistake of thinking the blade had cooled enough to cool it the rest of the way in water (a mistake I will not make again. I just didn't think it through). 

 

Frosty: It is true that it would be easier to buy known knife steel and I will do so for future, but for this knife I had steel already picked out. And now that I think about it, I remember that I didn't use the piece of round bar as was afore stated, instead I used a railroad e-clip for that blade and when I looked at the parent stock yesterday I noticed some pre-existing cracks. Maybe not enough to cause structural problems throughout the whole piece, but they were there. Thank you for the recommendation! Also, I would prefer to use steel that I didn't buy while learning how to make knives. Buying steel would be easier and better, but for now I will use the steel that is readily available to me (my cousins live directly beside the railroad tracks and can quickly find lots of loose railroad spikes and clips.)

[Steve Sells]

Do not be upset when we wont come visit you in prison when you get caught steeling from the RR property. 

For those that have missed all the other posts about this subject, we at IFI do not condone theft from the Railroads, its is a felony to take their property,.  In addition its not a good idea to publicly confess to theft on a world wide forum where law enforcement are members

[Frosty]

Ease up Steve, no sense trying to talk sense here, it'll only stir you up for no good reason. He'd obviously prefer to make his own mistakes rather than learn from ours. We should spend our time and effort where it might do some good. I know I've spent too much time on a thread when I find myself trying to keep the peace between an EXPERT and a first timer trying  to rationalize away mistakes a little good research would've prevented.

I'm finished here. You?

Frosty The Lucky. 

[Olorin]

I apologize. I didn't mean to start anything, debate was not my intention. I was unaware that taking discarded rail road clips was illegal, but I will keep that in mind for future. Although I have never seen anyone come along the tracks to pick up the discarded materials, I will keep that in mind. I believe I am finished with this thread. Thank you for all your help, I appreciate it. (Also, I have only been on this thread a little while and only come on when I have a question that needs answering and don't go much into other topics as my questions are usually rather specific. I was unaware of any other threads stating that this was illegal and, with all due respect, would appreciate being given the benefit of the doubt, if that is possible. And I have done research, but have heard many different things from many different sources all saying that their way works. I got the boiling water tip from someone on this forum with four circles under their name.)