JLP Blacksmith Teaching Center.

[jlpservicesinc]

So, today I was able to fire the furnace..  I started it under the front apron/shed roof and the next thing it was raining.  All the snow started melting. 

I was running it on #2 fuel oil.. I was surprised how easily it started once I was able to find the correct air flow. 

This was running on 2psi of fuel flow at the nozzle.  I was feeding 25psi to the oil filter and using a metering valve to bring it down to 2. 

I was able to grind out inside to smooth out the rough spots like planned. 

after the burn I decided to clean up the air gauge and oil feed rate.. was tough to read while it was firing. 

I need to install and air control rod..  This is the last piece of the puzzle this year. 

[Frosty]

I'll bet that gave you a nice warm feeling. When are you planning the first melt?

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Frosty,  I have some scrap alum to melt..    I know it needs a lid..   

I'm open to suggestions you have in regards to getting this more functional. 

This video is from when I cut back some on the burner..  An earlier video has flames spiraling out of the top. 

 

[Frosty]

Do you have a frame for the old one? If so use a castable refractory and a paper or cardboard tube for the exhaust hole and cast it on a piece of linoleum so it's nice and flat. Wax paper makes a food release agent so it doesn't stick to the linoleum or whatever you use. Cast it in the old steel ring or bend up a new one, probably 2-3" wide and thick enough to weld the lift mechanism to.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

The original lid was missing..  In reality I'm not sure it ever had a proper lid..   I think it might have had a piece of plate to cover the opening. 

I'm pretty sure this was used to separate steel from alum..  In other words they would stuff a transmission in it melt off the alum and dump the steel parts on the back side. 

Sounds good, thanks. 

[Frosty]

In that case a lid would just get in the way and probably be discarded. It shouldn't be hard to make one if you want, remember to counter weight it. Heck it wouldn't be hard to make it easily detachable or a separate unit for projects you want to keep free air off the melt.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Frosty the inside is round, though the body of it is square.  

Should I find a 220gallon propane tank and line that one? 

Or should I fill the corners with soft bricks then fill it with refractory? 

I know I'll have to line it with spikes to hold the refractory.  

I'm ok getting rid of the metal lip on top.. With the heat it just distorts anyhow, 

Have you seen Windy Hill Foundries videos? 

I fired it up again today to burn off more moisture  before putting it away for the winter..  I fired it for 30min. 

The pressure tank with about 25lbs air in it keeps the 2psi #2 fuel oil feeding really nicely.. Very steady. 

I still have a lot to learn..  I did try to adjust the air/fuel and this lead to the burn going out.. 

I have not figured out the ratio..    It does seem that the oil feed likes to be about 12-16 on the burner and about 50% on air feed.    this is with about 16Oz air and 2lbs fuel pressure. 

I have been using my old gasoline torch to light the furnace off but really thinking about setting up a transformer with long electrodes.. 

The burner does not like to be pushed all the way into the burner port..  It needs some clearance to venturi some air in.. 

[Frosty]

Then make a square frame that overlaps the round opening or make it the same size as the melter frame, weld some smallest diameter rebar or perhaps fence wire inside the frame for reinforcing. If you use rebar or straight rod weld it diagonally, it will be more resistant to cracking excessively.

Lay it on a piece of plywood covered in wax paper, parchment paper, etc. and fill it with a castable refractory maybe 1/2" above the reinforcing bar / wire and while it's wet lay the fire brick in the refractory and if possible fill the spaces.

I don't understand the question about the 220gl propane tank and lining it? 

Spikes to hold the refractory? I don't understand that either. Maybe if you're using refractories from 50 years ago, modern refractories are self reinforced and don't need it except on long flat spans if it's thin.

Learning what fuel and how to adjust it will be a matter of practice and you'll need to take notes, ESPECIALLY when you start melting metals, air fuel ratio makes a B I G difference. 

You are trying to do too many things at the same time, to remember what caused something to happen. It never works. For example how can you adjust the air fuel ratio when you  keep changing fuel? Every different fuel works best on one specific ratio. It is too complicated to explain easily. I'll cut and paste a basic chart showing neutral air fuel ratios. You are interested in Diesel in this example. Do NOT let the ratio by MASS confuse you, ignore it. It takes 104 cubic inches of air to burn 1 cubic inch of diesel fuel completely, no left over fuel or unburned oxygen in the exhaust. Make sense?

See how complicated this is? Do NOT worry about it until you have the melter rebuilt!

Jer

 

[Tim Harvey]

Merry Christmas everyone! 
Jennifer , Frosty hope you’re all doing well and staying warm ! 
Here in the southern hemisphere we have summer temperatures (20deg C ) 

Im thinking of you guys in the cold that I’ve never experienced. 
 

Always following along on this thread 

Jennifer your skills and dedication, perseverance are amazing, I’m always impressed with what you’re doing. 
 

Frosty you have a great deal of talent and experience through years of different projects it’s always interesting to read. 
 

Thank you to you all for sharing your journey and experience there’s always something to learn. 
 

All the best from New Zealand ( yes that little place below Australia) 

cheers Tim 

( Dairy farmer and Jack of all trades )

[Frosty]

MERRY CHRISTMAS Tim!! What's the "traditional" Christmas dinner down under? BBQ on the beach?

-1f right now up from -7f when  got up it's about 45 minutes till sunset so it looks like our high today was around -1f +/-.

We're having turkey, dressing, gravy, green bean salad and apple pie. It's just the two of us so there's no point in making big meals. It'll still be plenty for a proper gorging though. 

How about you guys out there?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Tim Harvey]

Thanks for your reply Frosty ! 
here in New Zealand traditional varies a bit , some certainly do have a bbq , many though do have a roast , can be pork , beef , lamb, chicken, or turkey . 
We had roast wild shot on our farm pork , new potatoes , parsnip sweet potato and peas . Desert here is traditional we call it pavlova ( it’s a meringue with cream on top )  fruit salad, custard , jelly with cream on top . Yes you say that is a meal on its own  had the main at lunch time and dessert for dinner . 
For me it’s still a day of jobs I have cows to milk as well . 
 

All the best to you both I hope you have Plenty of firewood in stock with those temperatures ! 
 

Tim 

[Frosty]

We had a small hobby farm for years here, Deb bred African Pygmy goats and when I was living at home we had horses so I know all too well that chores go on regardless of the holiday. Finding people you can trust to do the chores if you have to leave for a while is always a concern. We kept a number as "adopted" family, our table was always open to them and such. Mother numbered us, I was #1 son, Shannon my Sister #1 daughter and there were 2,3,4, etc. 

It was good having teenagers handy other than myself. 

How many head do you run? Strictly dairy or do you have other stock?

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

Howdy Tim,.  Merry Christmas to you and yours.. 

I'm a summer bug..   Winters brrrrr..  The school is so nice and warm though.. What a treat. 

We range here in winter from -14F to about 25F.    We are in the snow belt here.. Last few years it's been all over the place. 


Thanks for following along... What a crazy ride it's been.    Furnace is pretty much done for this winter... I'd like to give it one more firing to really cook it up..   I'll use waste oil and #2 fuel oil for the next burn.  Everything works pretty well now.. 

I'll change the oil in the blower on this next burn and make it ready for storage. 

I don't consider myself naturally curious nor skilled..   I was lucky enough to find blacksmithing early enough (8yrs old) and this and this alone helped me to desire to read technical manuals, how to repair manuals, etc, etc.    After stringing together all the manuals I have read it's just a matter of adding on the new variables and applying what is already there. 

Every new piece of what ever involves finding a factory workshop manual (preferably a hard copy) and reading it.  Usually cover to cover just to help understand it better.   I feel betrayed when I can't find information. 

Tim your dinner get together sounds fantastic.    

I'm planning on building a fast cross country gyroplane..  So maybe sometime in the future you might have me in the neighborhood..  

 

Merry Christmas to you all..  Hugs to boot. 

Frosty,  I have stoic charts, just not a good way to measure air to fuel..    I have wide band 02 meteres.  I also have CAD cells..   

I've gained a lot of experience with running the waste oil burner furnace in the school..   Judging flame color, size, shape, etc.  

It's really amazing that when I first setup the furnace it had only 1 air gauge and 1 pressure gauge.  

I have since added a pressure gauge at the metering pump  and what a difference this makes to see how inconsistent the oil is.. 

Every new batch of oil has to be fiddled with.. The other thing is, it goes thru a sock filter then a centrifuge..  

The centrifuge adds some air to the oil so this also has to be accounted for.. 

Anyhow, every batch of oil has to be dialed in.  Between the cad cell, and pressure out of the metering pump and then pressure at the burner nozzle it's pretty easy to dial in. 

I could not find any adjustment instructions for the Hauck 781 burner. Just basic input/output info. 

Thanks. 
 

[Frosty]

It's funny, I've been building propane burners since sometime in the late 80s and somewhere I have all sorts of information regarding things like flow rates through x size orifices at a given pressure, the effects of nozzle length, shape, etc. Then there is all the stuff that effects how well a given jet of gas induces a second source say air, temp pressure, etc. etc. It's all very scientific.

When it came down to it it was faster easier and more accurate to take what I knew about adjusting the flame of an oxy acet torch flame and tuning propane air burners by eye and ear. 

There's probably a good reason there aren't things like flow gages and such on your melter. The old mark 1 eyeball and ears are faster and more sure.

Frosty The Lucky.

[jlpservicesinc]

I agree, It's just nice having a starting point.   

When one is dealing with a very high potential for exploding ones self  (gallons of raw fuel with extra air) vs a slow flow with a know start factor (less air as propane will ignite with very little flow) vs it spewing out diesel. 

The pinch factor of the buttocks can be a little bit tight. 

Having the gasoline torch to light off the fuel mixture was a good thing..  Having a high voltage ignitor seems like even a better idea unless it's raining out. 

From what i can tell, about 5 air set on the burner at 16ozi and about a setting of 14 on the fuel discharge rate to start. 25psi oil feed pressure to filter and 2psi to burner via metering valve. 

I was not concerned with explosion since its such a large opening at the top.   But I did not want to create a volcano either. 

I have been talking with a guy who has experience with casting iron and has been at it awhile. 

Many people today use a syphon burner like used in a reguarl waste oil burner and add secondary air with a blower of some sort. 

From what I can see this roots blower will put out 385cfm at 1750 rpms at 4psi..    This means the burner only uses 2psi air max at full burn 9.7gph.. . 

I know thses figures because I have gauges installed to take notes and see the differences.  Used oil and heating fuels like a lazy flame with lyon manes..    

It's kind of hard to explain I have read about it in the NORA book..  National Oil research association.   They have a great book..  

with this its still a research type of deal.  I switched the pressure tank over to waste oil and currently have no way to preheat the used oil to feed the burner.  During the summer it's not a big deal, but it was 2F this morning and it's been 10F all day..  That really thickens up the oil.  

they recommend a value of 90SSu index, Stil figuring out..   

Sound and site are great ways to go.   The a cad cell to do the final dial in.. Adds some safety as when with a flame out. 

 

[Frosty]

Okay, you are doing it again, you are trying to understand and do too many things at one time and forget about other types of fuel systems unless you just want to put this melter out in a field and forget about it. Siphon burners are a First Class PITA and tend to REQUIRE almost non-stop adjustment. Smile say, "I'll consider it" and put it on the bad idea list. You have what you have it's a complete waste of time figuring out something else. 

You'd be farther ahead using a drip oil feed, those are simple and easy but not applicable to YOUR melter. We used to fire pottery and ceramics in drip oil kilns. The first time he tried waste oil he melted the kiln and scorched a 30' circle in his lawn. IF you're generous and open minded enough to have called it a "lawn."

Stop listening to the it'll explode and destroy everything BS. This is the hallmark the ignorant, the only thing they have to pretend to contribute are dire warnings. Just because "someone guy on the internet" SAYS they have poured iron a few times doesn't mean anything. This is just blog gossip and is more dangerous than helpful.

Just take a look at old Forged in Fire episodes where IDIOTS were OIL quenching blades in their garages. Before COVID this sort of invented experience used to get warnings  here regularly. 

About making a volcano. That is NOT going to happen if you just follow the basics. You DO have reliable electricity at the melter. No? If you do not then you should not even be trying to light it. PERIOD.

If the fuel stops, plugs, runs out or you shut it off, whatever the fire goes out and the blower cools the melter. This IS in fact how you should ALWAYS shut it down. Turn off the fuel and leave the blower running until you can hold your hand over the melter for a couple few seconds. Your refractory will last a LOT longer.

If however you lose the blower with fuel flowing you WILL get billowing flames maybe 20' high, maybe higher depending on how hot the melter is. So long as you have a master fuel shut off a good distance away, say 30' behind some type of thermal barrier this is no emergency either. Shut the fuel off, It WILL just go out, just let it cool naturally. Do NOT mess with it except maybe to cover the top with Kaowool to help it cool more slowly. 

It is NO BIG DEAL, spectacular maybe but so long as you have a clear space around it NOT an emergency. It WILL NOT explode!!

ONE last word about loss of air during a melt ABSOLUTELY DO NOT trust any automatic shut off any more than you'd trust someone's life to the safety on a firearm!! They are just devices made by man they are NOT infallible. Always have a manual shut off at a distance from the melter so YOU can shut it off. If the automatic works GOOD! No shut the manual valve off at the source till it's cool!

Okay, that's my advice for the day. IGNORE some guys on the internet, that advice falls under the "don't do it this way" category. 

Burn ONLY fuel oil until you have MASTERED the melter. It can NOT explode. Waste oil is for AFTER you know what you're doing! 

SECURE electricity or do NOT light it!! If you're using a generator make sure it's tuned and has a large fuel tank large enough the melter runs out of fuel BEFORE the generator!

That's ALL folks! (Looney Toons sign off from my kidhood)

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

[Tim Harvey]

Frosty , we are milking 250 Holstein cows twice a day here , we have a rotary milking shed . Our girls graze outside in the fields year round. During winter we feed lots of hay. Milking season when needed they get grass and silage when needed. 
pasture management is important so they have quality. We are in a wet area I guess you’d say rainforest bordering the farm . We get average rainfall 140 inches per year. About three years ago we had a big three day flood of 48inches , lots of damage! 
we can get dry too and do make hay here. 
il have to send you some pictures maybe. 

Thanks for your reply Jennifer,you're welcome to drop by anytime  actually reading this extensive thread I know that you would like it Here there’s limestone caves ! And fishing/ diving. 

I came to this site because I bought a heap of forging equipment from a closing blacksmith. I saved what I could, Not all of it unfortunately. 
wanted to learn more. 
I’m no engineer at all but I can weld , lathe, mill and fix most things like you guys.  I really appreciate what the clan here shares from all round the world. 
I want to rebuild our farm workshop because it is close to falling down lol and take some of the ideas from here. 

Thanks again for your friendly words Frosty and Jennifer . 
regards 

Tim 

I attach a picture I took Christmas Eve a Pohutukawa tree in flower along the foreshore near Nelson 

 

[jlpservicesinc]

Frosty, I'm not quite sure why you wrote what you did..  I only explained what settings I used to get it to ignite and burn very consistently. 

There were only a few gallons left in the pressurized fuel supply cell and I needed to move used oil to the furnace to heat the shop.  

So.. 

Tim,  have you gotten your shop setup yet?  Forging is a lot of fun..  It's not as hard as everyone can make it sound..  In some ways it's one of those things that seems impossible until you get your first lesson with someone who is good and can teach.    These opertunities will move you forwards extremely quickly..    I have a youtube channel but many don't really like it as it's educational vs entertaining..   

Your area looks beautiful..    We don't get nearly the rain you do, but we do have a lot of clay in the soil here and it's slickery..    We had a 0F morning with a high of 10F..   We just got another 7" of snow.. 

Thats a good size heard..   Years ago this was a farming area..  Lots of 100 to 150head..  But those days are long gone. 

Nearly all the dairy farms switched over to hay and no more cows..   I worked on a dairy farm as a kid.. Of course I wasn't really able to do anything..  I think I got a 25 cent piece per hour.   

It's funny how all things work..   

Love to hear more about your equipment and shop..  If you started a thread please drop a link here..  

Your welcome. 

[Frosty]

Wow, the  Pohutukawa tree is spectacular! Thanks for the picture. 250 cows is quite an operation, do you have employees? When I was young we visited relatives that had a dairy farm and it was overwhelming to me but I was a maybe 8yro, city kid. I spent a few weeks a summer on a family friend's cattle ranch and their oldest son Rex spent a couple weeks with us.

A horse and cattle ranch is way different but bet the compost pile smells about the same.

Sorry Jennifer as usual I got carried away. All that talk boils down to. Use fuel oil to learn how to use the melter. It is consistent always the same so you won't have to figure it out. Once you know how it works on an operator's level. By operator I mean someone who knows the equipment well enough they do not have to put conscious thought into running it. At that point adjusting it for a new or unpredictable waste fuel will be as simple as seasoning a pot of stew.

On  the other hand if all you want to do is empty the tank and make fire, you'll learn something about it. 

It's just not how I figure out a piece of machinery. I do it in logical steps drawing on past experience and close observation. Deb does things with a random lets see what happens method. 

I'll try to edit the whys and reasoning and stick to basics.

Jer

 

[jlpservicesinc]

I certainly don't disagree.    As you pointed out, you apply information you already know and link this new information/results together. 

I don't have any real information on the use of this type of furnace. Two humans can stand in it. It's that big.. Do the same parameters exist? Sure they do..    Is it different than the gas furnaces I have used..  It sure is..   With those, you put on the gas, hit the ignitor, and turn the air up..  It's easy to see, hear, and watch the flame coming out of the lid. 

This is too tall with too much of a flame to stand over to look in.  Once the cover is made it should allow for the flame to shoot out and see what's what. 

[Frosty]

My real point was as always, keep it as simple as possible. The fewer things you have to figure out the better. Every thing you have to adjust complicates it exponentially. Because you can't tell exactly what did what. 1 change X happened. Change it again and watch X. EZ PZ. 

However if you change 2 things and X happens you don't know which thing changed X so you have to test 4 times to find out. 1change = 1 test. 2 changes = 4 tests. 10 changes is NOT 100 tests it is 10 to the 10th power or 10x10x10x10x10x10x10x10x10x10 tests to determine which of the 10 changes did X. BEFORE you can make the adjustment you need to. Of course luck MIGHT strike on the first try. It IS the universal wild card.

It makes no difference how big a machine is, complexity is the issue. You have an oil fired furnace called a melter. It is no different in operation than any oil fired furnace. 

Right now you are trying to get it to operate properly on a tank of waste oil that's going to be used up BEFORE you get it burning properly. What's the next batch of oil going to be like? 

If on the other hand you buy 20 gals of #1 fuel oil you'll figure out how to work your burner quickly simply because the oil flows easily, lights easily and is available anywhere. Once you know how the burner and furnace work, what adjustment changes what thing. The next new fuel you learn to burn will be MUCH easier because you'll know what adjustment changes what. 

Time is money, saving a few bucks on waste oil isn't, if you have to spend 20 times as long making it work. 

We only have so much time and we don't know when it's up.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Brian Hibbert]

I saw the video of the casting furnace you posted on YouTube yesterday.  Impressive!

 

[jlpservicesinc]

Thanks Brian,  Everything is falling into place..  I just have to get out to the shop and finish up some wiring.  

 

[jlpservicesinc]

Sorry Frosty won't be here to see this one!!!! 

Picked up a new gasoline torch..   Have never seen this brand..  Took it all apart and cleaned it.  Made a new piston leather and she is ready for her first run. 

She is a biggin..  

any information on the maker would be appreciated. 

[Ridgeway Forge Studio]

Jennifer, 

I’m sure Frosty is still urging safety and prudence from the great beyond! 
 

I assume that the images you are showing us are either props from a Star Wars movie or perhaps a medieval torture device?

seriously, though, a truly impressive piece of kit.