tardster Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 Hello everyone, I'm very new to all of this so please bear with me. Before I go to far I did use the search function but to be honest I'm quite confused on the proper way to line my forge I'm building. Are there 3 diff layers of the lining, the wool/blanket, rigidizer and then refractory cement or do you just need 2 of them such as the wool/blanket and a rigidizer or the refractory cement? Im building my forge out of a old portable 11 gallon air tank that has been cut down to 12 inches long and in the middle at the widest part its 12 inches across. I figured that would be big enough for me to learn with and honestly I have no intentions of making swords or anything the long. How thick should the wool/blanket be, there is 1 inch and 2 inch? My plan was to line the inside of the forge with either 1 or 2 inch wool/blanket ( I was leaning towards the 2 inch wool/blanket, just sounded safer to me but I could be wrong) and at the bottom us a fire brick for the floor area. I am also planning on using 1 burner for it since this is my first forge and my plans are just for the part time to see what I can do with it. And finally is it better to have the burner straight up and down or on an angle? Thanks in advance Ed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 Welcome to IFI... I always suggest reading this to get the best out of the forum. READ THIS FIRST Have you read through the forges 101 thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tardster Posted December 29, 2018 Author Share Posted December 29, 2018 Irondragon, I did read the "read first" thread and I searched for about 4 hours reading different threads but as I said it confused me even more. I will just go with the 2 inches of wool/blanket and use the refractory cement over it to start and see how it goes from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 The search function of the forum leaves a lot to be desired. In the thread I linked it shows how to get results by using your favorite search engine like google and adding "iforgeiron" to the search term. First of all you do not want to use refractory cement what you want is castable refractory. Two inches of wool insulation is good, I use two separate layers of one inch thickness both rigidized then a 1/2 inch layer of Satanite or Kast-O-Lite or Mizzou. Have you looked up Wayne Coe artist blacksmith. His site has details of how to build a forge and he supplies materials too. If you edit your profile to show your location, you might be surprised how many members are near you and a lot of answers are location dependent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tardster Posted December 29, 2018 Author Share Posted December 29, 2018 irondragon, I have been to wayne's website and that's where i'm sure I got the castable refractory and refractory cement mixed up. I have the wool and refractory cement ordered already, they should be here next week sometime. so now that I know there is a difference between the 2, what is the difference and why wouldn't I be able to use the cement instead of the castable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 Welcome aboard, glad to have you. The reason you don't want to use refractory cement for the flame face in a forge is similar to why you don't want to pump diesel in your gas engine car. Sure your car CAN run on diesel it just won't so it well. Refractory cement is intended to cement things together say brick or blanket it is NOT intended to survive in direct contact with a furnace flame. You can ask these questions with a search engine, as suggested use your favorite and add Iforgeiron to the terms. For instance, "Can I use refractory cement in a propane forge? Iforgeiron" I just double checked those terms and DRATS! They weren't terribly informative, only one IFI hit the rest were talking abut how to use cement! Don't use refractory or any kind of cement as a forge liner, it won't work long if at all. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tardster Posted December 29, 2018 Author Share Posted December 29, 2018 Frosty, my plan was to use the 2" wool then coat it with the cement and for the floor I was going to use a couple fire bricks over the top of the wool and cement. Is that doable or does it have to be the castable only? my burner is one of those geode stainless steel 130000 btu burners I got off amazon. I tried to build my own and it didn't quite work as well as I thought it should so to get going I figured to get one that works and once I get use to it I'd try to build one of your burners once I'm more comfortable, if that makes since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 You could use to spend more time reading Forges 101 sub section on IFI. But since you asked you can use what you like but I sure wouldn't do THAT. Even if I'd never built one I'd maybe do what the experienced folk do. It's only been 27 minutes since I suggested search terms YOU should do some research using. I refined the search terms a little to: Cement refractory forge liner, forges 101, Iforgeiron That will drop you into threads discussing using any kind of cement in any kind of forge. That's about all the short cutting I'm doing for you. I've been making the things for probably 35 years and I read what other folks are doing and I don't do that to save YOU a little work. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tardster Posted December 29, 2018 Author Share Posted December 29, 2018 Frosty, I miss understood what you meant when you said not to use the cement for the flame face. I thought you meant not to let the flames hit it so that is why I said I was planning on using firebricks for the bottom or the flame face as I took it. I'm sorry if I bothered you or you thought I was expecting you to as you said save me a little work, Ill make sure I just creep the forums and not ask questions anymore since it is such a bother to you and others... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 Sorry. Flame face is the face in contact with flame. The face in direct flame from the burner is called the flame impingement area and is under much worse erosion conditions. Propane or oil flame is very chemically active it takes some tough stuff to survive long. The fellows who tune our boiler are happy to explain why the burner has to be adjusted so no place in the boiler BUT the tubes is in direct contact with the burner flame. I ask them all questions and so far have gotten the same one regarding fire brick and furnace flames. I haven't noticed any differences in a propane forge. And to be perfectly clear no refractory cement in a forge. Unless you're using it to stick fire brick together then use refractory mortar. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tardster Posted December 29, 2018 Author Share Posted December 29, 2018 As I was reading through some of the searches I found where Vaughn T said "The best thing to do is use a combination of materials that maximizes their strengths and minimizes there weakness. 2" of a batt insulation like Superwool or Kaowool will keep the heat in the forge chamber, but it's easily damaged. So apply a quarter-inch of refractory cement over top of it. You get a hard surface, armor-plating the soft batt, while retaining the better insulating quality of the batt. My Majestic forge uses solid insulation, including hard bricks for the floor. It's the biggest gas hog I could imagine, and it radiates heat far more than it should. The softer cast insulation on the sides and top of the chamber is extremely soft, easily chipped and abraded by the stock being heated or the tongs reaching for said stock." This is why I was asking, it wasn't because I wanted others to do it for me. Again at the beginning of my post I said I was confused and asked the questions I asked. Some posts have said you can and others say you cant. I'm trying to build this the proper way. I'm not much of a game player and I don't play games with others so if I ask a question it is because the information I have is conflicting and I want to make sure I'm doing it correctly. Again I'm sorry if my question bothered you or that you thought I was just trying to be lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 On 12/29/2018 at 4:26 PM, tardster said: I have been to wayne's website and that's where i'm sure I got the castable refractory and refractory cement mixed up No where in Wayne's directions for building a forge does he mention refractory cement. I've used his PDF for directions, maybe someone can use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tardster Posted December 30, 2018 Author Share Posted December 30, 2018 irondragon, looking at waynes website and reading posts on here is what confused me and got me mixed up with cement and castable. Im sure I read it to fast or just read the refractory part of it and didn't realize they were 2 different things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tardster Posted December 31, 2018 Author Share Posted December 31, 2018 once I have the wool/blanket inside the forge and covered with castable refractory should I use a fire brick for the floor or will it be strong enough to hold up? My plans are to start off small with railroad spikes and other similar objects. I have no plans for anything like Damascus or forge welding things together until I can get a lot of experience just using the forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 I like using two 1" layers of kaowool as when you have to replace it, (like a tire on a car---if you use it; you will have to replace it sometime!) You can replace 1 layer. I personally dislike vertical burners intensely due to the chimney effect when you turn them off and the possibly of re-running exhaust fumes through the burner spiking the CO production. I'd suggest putting the burner(s) to the side and work on getting a swirl to the burn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tardster Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 Thomas, Thank you for the advice. I will make sure to get 1" kaowool next time so I can do like you suggested. My burner is on bit of an angle, I'd say probably the 1oclock position when you look at it from front of the forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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