cjweaver13 Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 Hey all, new user here! I am beginning my forging journey and currently making a sidearm burner using the Zoeller design. First change I have to make is simply using a 1/8" brass nipple with black iron plug to create nozzle with tapped .035 Hobart tip. The big question is the reducing tee. No hardware store near me has the correct orientation of the 3/4 reducer hole (they are all on the perpendicular side instead of straight side). I can grab an all around 1-1/4" tee and a reducing bushing for the end. Will I only be able to tell the difference if I were running 2 side by side with the "correct" tapered tee, or will it be funtional for all intents and purposes. It is going in about a 8"x10" firebrick refractory lined forge. Thanks! PS. I have seen a couple videos using my intended method with reducer bushing, most prominent being this video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted June 26, 2018 Share Posted June 26, 2018 6 hours ago, cjweaver13 said: Hey all, new user here! Welcome to Ifi... The burner experts will be along shortly. In the mean time I suggest reading this thread. https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/53873-read-this-first/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 No; the big question is why you would use his old design when Larry states right on his site that his newer "Z" burner is hotter; by the way, it has an easy pipe fitting to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Welcome aboard CJ, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the gang live within visiting distance. I haven't watched the video you linked I see all I need in the still. It's a perfect example of why it's so hard to learn anything useful watching Youtube videos. Not only is this a mediocre design it's incorrectly built and the flame shows it. It's running terribly rich. Don't buy plumbing at a hardware store. Would you buy auto parts at a swimming pool supply? Try a plumbing supply maybe? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcornell Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 Regarding parts - depending on where you live, you may not have easy access to a store that will let you look at plumbing fittings - so if that's the case, McMaster-Carr or Grainger is the next alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjweaver13 Posted June 27, 2018 Author Share Posted June 27, 2018 1 hour ago, jcornell said: Regarding parts - depending on where you live, you may not have easy access to a store that will let you look at plumbing fittings - so if that's the case, McMaster-Carr or Grainger is the next alternative. This is definitely the case. There is a graingers about 1.5 hours away I guess I'll have to visit. 5 hours ago, Frosty said: Welcome aboard CJ, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many of the gang live within visiting distance. I haven't watched the video you linked I see all I need in the still. It's a perfect example of why it's so hard to learn anything useful watching Youtube videos. Not only is this a mediocre design it's incorrectly built and the flame shows it. It's running terribly rich. Don't buy plumbing at a hardware store. Would you buy auto parts at a swimming pool supply? Try a plumbing supply maybe? Frosty The Lucky. Frosty, you'll laugh but there are no such thing by me, only hardware stores. I'min upstate NY and closest "metropolitan" area is Albany about 1.5 hours away. I'll have to eat up a Saturday and take a road trip. In that video I don't know if he was show boating and jacking up psi for a bigger flame, but I also noticed he had a choke on the hole and covering up about 1/4 of it. I attached a picture of mine, and now the only problem is it starts off great, then after 5 minutes starts making the rhythmic woomph sound. I've tried straight pipe, 1" reducer on end of 3/4" pipe, and a flange floor on top of the forge ceiling. All ways it does this, and somebody smarter than me said to first get new regulator. I currently have an amazon special 0-20psi diaphram style. Should be here Friday. PS I've seen your burner design all over the place too and will most likely give it a shot as well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binesman Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 How about some photos of it in the forge both running and not running. That will give a lot more info. In my experience the rythmic pulsing sound is either a flow issue (regulator/hose/tank) or to much exhaust near the air intake causing it to choke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 15 hours ago, Frosty said: Don't buy plumbing at a hardware store. Would you buy auto parts at a swimming pool supply? Try a plumbing supply maybe? Frosty The Lucky. You did it again; off this goes to the burner thread Mikey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 CJ: Look in the yellow pages (paper ones) for HVAC supply. I'm in Alaska and there are two within maybe 20 minutes of me and that's where I get my plumbing parts. The burner in the video is burning very rich so having the choke plate partially closed just shows Mr. Lazy doesn't know what he's doing. That it works at all just goes to show these things aren't rocket surgery. Using a bushing reducer induces bad turbulence in the mixing tube and greatly reduces intake air induction. If you really want to tune the one you built start by shortening the mig tip, the farther from the tube the more air it'll induce. If that doesn't work use smaller mig tips. Do it by increments and only do ONE thing at a time or you'll never know what change did what. Ah, you flatter me Mike, I was just trying for something pithy and Thomas has used up all the good ones. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjweaver13 Posted June 28, 2018 Author Share Posted June 28, 2018 13 hours ago, Frosty said: CJ: Look in the yellow pages (paper ones) for HVAC supply. I'm in Alaska and there are two within maybe 20 minutes of me and that's where I get my plumbing parts. The burner in the video is burning very rich so having the choke plate partially closed just shows Mr. Lazy doesn't know what he's doing. That it works at all just goes to show these things aren't rocket surgery. Using a bushing reducer induces bad turbulence in the mixing tube and greatly reduces intake air induction. If you really want to tune the one you built start by shortening the mig tip, the farther from the tube the more air it'll induce. If that doesn't work use smaller mig tips. Do it by increments and only do ONE thing at a time or you'll never know what change did what. Ah, you flatter me Mike, I was just trying for something pithy and Thomas has used up all the good ones. Frosty The Lucky. Thanks Frosty. So far one says deeper in the tube, and you say farther away. Would this answer change based on mig tip size, or is it strictly getting placement of gas correct to affect incoming air on side port to increase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjweaver13 Posted June 29, 2018 Author Share Posted June 29, 2018 Thanks all for the help. Ended up being a bad regulator. Runs beautiful now. Still put a choke on and adjusted nozzle height and we're in the ballpark. Hammered on some steel tonight for the first time felt good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 18 hours ago, cjweaver13 said: Thanks Frosty. So far one says deeper in the tube, and you say farther away. Would this answer change based on mig tip size, or is it strictly getting placement of gas correct to affect incoming air on side port to increase? Different burners tune differently. My experience with jet ejector type induction machines taught me different things than Mike and other folk's experience. I've had good luck tuning the fuel air mix by moving the jet orifice closer to or farther away from the throat. The throat being the narrowest part or top of the mixing tube. My intent when making a naturally aspirated burner is to put as much fuel air in the correct ratio in the furnace per second as possible. This means running the largest jet as possible that can induce enough air to do the job. The farther the jet is from the throat the greater the induction go too far and the cone of propane strikes the edge of the mixing tube and is disrupted and you lose induction. The trick is to get the outside margin of the cone to strike the tube wall just beyond the close end. This is how I can get stable well tuned flame running a 0.035 contact tip jet in a 3/4" burner and maintain a proper flame through it's psi range. At any point choking it makes it run super too rich. There is an easier way to build a working burner and that's make it run lean and add a choke. That's where you see a 3/4" burner running a 0.030" or smaller jet well down in the tube and a choke to tune the fuel air mix. One advantage to this strategy is stability in breezes and back pressure. They naturally try to induce more air than they need so outside conditions are easy to adjust for and because they tend to have higher flame velocity back pressure in the forge isn't as big a factor. Hmmmmm? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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