How to forge a pair of Hollow bit tongs.

[jlpservicesinc]

https://youtu.be/CfRUT53L6hw

 

Title pretty much says it all..  I changed plans mid stream which I know better to do as it can be more time consuming than just starting over.

[George Geist]

Nice work

George

[jlpservicesinc]

33 minutes ago, George Geist said:

Nice work

George

Thanks George.. 

[Anachronist58]

Nice recovery JLP.  Did I note correctly that you never put a file to that pair?

We really enjoyed the speeded up rework portion - don't turn off that audio!

What would you expect normal fabrication time to be for that configuration? (Noting your utterly meticulous approach to every feature)

While watching, I got more ideas for upsetting tool design.

Robert Taylor

 

[jlpservicesinc]

3 hours ago, Anachronist58 said:

Nice recovery JLP.  Did I note correctly that you never put a file to that pair?

We really enjoyed the speeded up rework portion - don't turn off that audio!

What would you expect normal fabrication time to be for that configuration? (Noting your utterly meticulous approach to every feature)

While watching, I got more ideas for upsetting tool design.

Robert Taylor

 

Robert.. thank you.. 

 The jaws were forged to size/length as the final shape was refined.  I squished (upset) them onto themselves making them not as long.. This added thickness to both ends and centered the mass to the jaw.. 

 At the end of the forging/riveting and once stamped. I cleaned up the very end with the hot rasp and you can see where it's a little shiny on one side, at the same time I cleaned up the tops of the V groove to make even..   

Here is the kicker in answer to you question to time..  It was 20F in the trailer. No heat or electricity and I had the roof vents open to let light in...((all the videos were recorded this way after my regular work day and I tried to start filming around 3pm before the sun went down to far to be useful))

 I was wearing my insulated coveralls till I warmed up (sweating)..  each piece of equipment was sucking the heat right out of the metal so forge times were extremely short.. Wasn't till forge welding the reins that the anvil was warm to the touch..  I think it made it to 33F in the trailer by the time I was done.. 

Then there is the fact that for each video "How to" I have produced since last year.. Each item is the first time since between 2001- 2004 of making that item. (all custom orders. not stock list) . All the measurements are guesstimates verified as I forge..  It's not till it's finished that I am able to say yes it's correct or there is extra.. All guesstimates..  What you guys actually are watching are just the forge times.. Or I should say I remove all the heating and reheating of the metal at the forge.. 

This guesstimate was correct for making Bolt making tongs up to about 1/2" stock but not correct for the adjustments needed to hold the nail header.. 

 From start to finish without the modification for a skilled smith would be about 30-50 minutes in a heated shop with good equipment following the directions.  

Someone in good forging shape could make a pair of these in 30 minutes pretty easy as the only things that take time is the welding of the reins and the slots cut..  Ideally it's easier to thin out like was started to do and then flatten with the jaws in a more conventional position pointed forwards away from the jaw pivot..  Or for smaller sizes you could just file them in.. 

That little modification added nearly 30 mintues to the build..  and the cold added another 20-30 minutes easily  Total video length was 1hr 43 minutes (camera start to camera stop)..

Can't wait to see the upsetting tool..   

FYI..  LOL.. One of the reasons I have been making these "How to" videos is because of taking off so much time and being out of forging shape, both psychically and mentally..  I'm not one to go and make stuff just to practice.. It has to be a paying job or offer and excuse in a positive light..   So each video has been a way to exercise and get both the muscles and the brain to kick back into forging mode..

What I have come to realize is. I'm substantially older and while i used to be a pretty good trade smith.. I have a long way to go to get back to being a metal mover..   I figure it will take about a year for the ability to forge properly to kick back in.. I did notice while at the NEB event this past weekend  that I actually had a few hits where I could see the metal move the way it's supposed to instead of like lead.. 

The other reason and really the main reason to make these videos is:   The information I try to share is more trade related info vs artistic..  And for some people the details of how or why, I did not see anywhere else..   

I really hope that people can take away something from these videos that makes them better smiths and makes the job easier..   

[Anachronist58]

JLP - Very thorough and comprehensive response. It has addressed my curiousity, except, what is the impetus for working without heat/electricity? Is it to emulate demo conditions?

14 hours ago, jlpservicesinc said:

Can't wait to see the upsetting tool..

Sometimes it pains me to bring up these design ruminations - I am months behind in my plan, and the Employer is enthused with the idea of me working seven nights a week til a certain nether-region freezes over.

However, I will share with you the latest iteration inspired by viewing your video. Keep in mind that these are modular iterations, subject to flexible paradigm shifts:

I have dozens of ~3/8" x 1-1/2" x 1-3/4" EDM'd blocks of 17-4 ph.

A square tube with a cradle for the blocks drops into the hardie (or the post vise). The pair of blocks (dies) are slightly open at rest. The heated stock is inserted. A light hammer blow sets the dies to bite the stock, and the upset follows.

Of course, the dies are cleared for whatever shape/diameter is being upset.

Hope that paints a clear picture.

This concept is by no means new or original, but methinks that were this tool to grow on trees, if you will, Smiths would be plucking and putting them into use.

As always, critique is welcome and useful.

Robert Taylor

[ThomasPowers]

Point out to your boss that according to Dante the lowest layer of the inferno *is* frozen over and so you can stop working those hours....(I prefer John Ciardi's translation of the 4? I have read)

[jlpservicesinc]

6 hours ago, ThomasPowers said:

Point out to your boss that according to Dante the lowest layer of the inferno *is* frozen over and so you can stop working those hours....(I prefer John Ciardi's translation of the 4? I have read)

Thomas I just wanted to thank you for posting up a few titles on another thread.. I went and found one of them on Wrought iron making and it was excellent.. Thanks.. 

1 hour ago, Anachronist58 said:

JLP - Very thorough and comprehensive response. It has addressed my curiousity, except, what is the impetus for working without heat/electricity? Is it to emulate demo conditions?

It's the demo trailer and sits 75ft from anything else...  Out in the middle of the horse field.. Not interested in running extension cords or heating a space that is not designed for it.. Besides It was not really long enough or I should say there is not enough room for a heater, all the equipment, 2 tripods, 2 anvils, all the bar stock and shorts, the nail barrel.. etc, etc.. I think you get it.. I've crammed just about every piece of equipment into the trailer that one could need for just about any project..   Just picked up a Mini swage block at NEB meet for the trailer..  I was hoping to add more feet to the trailer to give me storage room, room for a foot hammer and for a Hand drill press, but no luck there.. It's been raining for weeks now..  Here's the block with the pockets all polished ready for use. 

1 hour ago, Anachronist58 said:

Sometimes it pains me to bring up these design ruminations - I am months behind in my plan, and the Employer is enthused with the idea of me working seven nights a week til a certain nether-region freezes over.

However, I will share with you the latest iteration inspired by viewing your video. Keep in mind that these are modular iterations, subject to flexible paradigm shifts:

I have dozens of ~3/8" x 1-1/2" x 1-3/4" EDM'd blocks of 17-4 ph.

A square tube with a cradle for the blocks drops into the hardie (or the post vise). The pair of blocks (dies) are slightly open at rest. The heated stock is inserted. A light hammer blow sets the dies to bite the stock, and the upset follows.

Of course, the dies are cleared for whatever shape/diameter is being upset.

Hope that paints a clear picture.

This concept is by no means new or original, but methinks that were this tool to grow on trees, if you will, Smiths would be plucking and putting them into use.

As always, critique is welcome and useful.

Robert Taylor

Headers more than any other tool I can think of have the largest variance in design..   I have seen ones with stops for making bolts the same length, ones with 4 or 5 different sizes on a common split body with a spring on the end for vise use..  I even saw a professional blacksmiths bolt making vise and hand operated threader.. I just about went insane when I saw them.. I wanted those tools in the worse way.. Everything was there including screw making dies.. Argh..   Just amazing tools.. I have only seen this set of tools once in an old journal..  I have never seen any others like them.. 

Back in the day I used to dream about getting a shop properly setup like a real old fashioned Trade smith shop like at a factory center where they did all varieties of work.. 

A swage stand with all standard sizes up to 2",  Both top and bottom sets,   Set tools of varing sizes.. up to 3 inch.  dishing hardies up to 5", Hammer punches.. (or I should say eye punches) with 8 different sizes.. etc, etc..

Water powered both for forging hammers and blowers..  

 

As to your design..  I think its a great idea..  Especially if you move into a production type shop or your making fancy or different heads..  For me the ideal tool would have an upsetting matrix and heading port in the same tool.. 

 

 There are just so many different ways to get the job done..  

For hinge pins I use a pair of vise inserts which are surface hardened and it has a set in head so once i form the pin I just take it out and few licks of the rasp and have a perfectly upset and rounded head..  Only problem is these are designed to fit the vise which is sitting out with all the other equipment which I hope to eventually get back into a functional 4 station blacksmith shop with a forge for anvil making/redressing with an overhead crane..  

Sorry..  I'm fantasizing again.