Moose5124 Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 Ok gentlemen, I'm new to the site and to forging itself, I'm a welder but looking to step it up in the fabrication world. This will generally be a hobby forge with the possibility of making small custom pieces for other welding projects. My first forge build is going to be somewhat experimental because there wasn't much material easily available. To start I used some fire brick and coated it all around with 3000*f refractory cement also used to join the bricks together to make my fire box. Can't say how it will hold up most importantly to me is getting the burners installed correctly there seems to be a lot of information regarding burner size, quantity, and design. If it doesn't get hot enough...not a big deal what I don't want is to have a dangerous setup but something I can learn on and study the design. So back to my fire box which will be wrapped and an 1/8" steel box (leftover sheet) witha hinged door and a slider window so I can't adjust ventilation. The box measures 4-1/2" x 4-1/2" x 9" deep. If my math is correct its about 182 cubic inches. My first thought was obviously an efficient and effective burner setup. The question is 1 burner or 2 and what size. I can obtain and adapt any fitting together no problem but looking for recommendations from someone with the knowledge and experience. Ill post some pictures of what I have together and what iaccomplish today thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to help a rookie, looking forward to hammering some hot steel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 One 1/2" size burner is the largest your space can use. I hope you meant semi-insulating firebrick (2600 F). Look to use a Frosty "T"; you are going to need its soft flame, to prevent back pressure problems in that small space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose5124 Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 Not actually sure on the fire brick specs but hoping the refractory cement with do the truck, if the cement and or brick break down no big deal I will order up some kaowool and recommended refractory to coat it with. I will look in to the burner design and 1/2" is what I was thinking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose5124 Posted May 21, 2017 Author Share Posted May 21, 2017 Took a look at that design, looks like the way to go not sure if I'll get to it today but seems very simple. Next question...that's design is for a 3/4" setup. If I'm going to use 1/2" then what size mig tip should I use? Would a .035 still work or try a .30? Thanks again for the help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcornell Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 1/2" Frosty T-burner, I use a .023 tweeco tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose5124 Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 And how about th length of the burner? also wondering if there should be a flare on the burner I suppose it can be added later if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcornell Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I tried 4", 5" and 6" - I think I was happiest with 5" with a piece of conduit connector (minus zinc coating) for a flare tip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzzkill Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 The general rule of thumb for tube length is 8 to 9 times the diameter, so 4 to 4.5 inches length for a 1/2" Frosty T burner. A flare may not be necessary in the forge. The burner won't stay lit in the open air without one though. In my experience flares do help some with flame stability while the forge is heating up. Your refractory material where the burner enters the forge can act as a flare if it's shaped correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose5124 Posted May 23, 2017 Author Share Posted May 23, 2017 Perfect I have a 6" piece laying around, the roof of the firebox is the fire brick so I was able to grind a flare shape on the inside and figure just leave the pipe recessed an 1/8" and weld a flange to the outside of the box, tap it with a couple set screws to adjust if needed. You guys have been a huge help great forum with great advice. Already planning a larger forge build but can't wait to see how this mini forge heats up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 As to length, I would go for an eight times the diameter on a "T" burner, just as Frosty recommends Nine diameters works best on a Mikey burner, or a typical linear burner, and fourteen diameters on a Vortex burner. Different designs have different needs. One rule of thumb is that it is much easier to shorten a mixing tube, than to stretch one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Anywhere between 8 - 9 x the ID is just fine. Much longer and you need to increase the tube dia. at the 12% ratio or friction will degrade performance. Much shorter and the Propane and air don't mix well enough. You can get the mixed effects of visible signs the flame is burning rich AND the steel forming scale in the fire. A misaligned burner can cause the same effect as well but you can see the flame is misaligned at the nozzle so it doesn't fool as many folk. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose5124 Posted May 26, 2017 Author Share Posted May 26, 2017 thanks frosty. I have decided to skip the experimental mini forge and go right to building a decent size forge using better insulation and design. I ordered some ceramic blanket all i could find was 2400*f. they were 1"x2'x1' and ordered 2 pieces figuring it would be enough for 2 layers with 1 layer on the floor and an insulated fire brick for a durable flat surface and i figured i have a small piece or 2 left for the back wall and doors. Going to stick with Frosty's T burner and go up to 3/4". not sure exactly how large i will go looking for thoughts on that...I know there is no perfect size and it will depend on what im using it for, as stated earlier in the post it will be for learning and hobbies (making knives and swords) but regardless if i get good at it i know ill enjoy hammering metal. I just dont want to find myself using it often and wishing I made it a little bit bigger as of now im thinking 1ft length with a 4"x4" opening and 2-burner setup? let me know what you guys think the cermaic blanket should be here tomorrow but im trying to find something comparable itc100 but less expensive and where to find online or possibly local. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose5124 Posted May 28, 2017 Author Share Posted May 28, 2017 Kind of a busy weekend but managed to squeeze in some time to get started got my box tacked together have to wait til Monday to get my gas bottle filled to get everything welded, as of now the box measures 12"x10"w x 8"h minutes the 2" of insulation. Kaowool was delivered this morning and I have some plistix on order hopefully won't have to wait long. Tomorrow I'll pick up some pipe and fittings to make the 3/4" "Frosty" burner. As it sits now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose5124 Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 Still waiting on the plistix but got my box welded up and insulated with 2" of kaowool and I'll have to pick up some fire brick for a floor and baffle doors, burner is all together and working ok it's burning hot for sure but It may need some tuning it's not a great picture but lmk what you guys think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Looks like the flame is rich and blowing off the end of the burner. What psi are you running? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose5124 Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 8 hours ago, Frosty said: Looks like the flame is rich and blowing off the end of the burner. What psi are you running? Frosty The Lucky. There is no gauge on the regulator just the red adjustment knob so I can't say exactly but the dial should be right around 5psi maybe a little higher, I played with the dial a bit and it seems like any lower and I have a weak red flame, any hire I can see and hear the pressure go up but the flame stays about the same distance from the end of pipe. Wondering if a longer nipple might help? It's currently 6-1/2" from then base of the tee and is flush with the kaowool on the ceiling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose5124 Posted June 2, 2017 Author Share Posted June 2, 2017 Played with the regulator a bit looks much better but seems like a flare would be big help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Looks better but still a little rich looking. What size is the T? No, making the nipple longer will inhibit air induction making it run richer. It's running rich now. Yes? Where is the end of the jet in relation to the intake ports? A pic straight in one of the air intake ports will help. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 BTW, that flame is looking pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose5124 Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 Regular 3/4" T from Home Depot, yes it seems rich it's very touchy as far as adjusting it goes, more pressure my flame hits the floor like in the first pic or it starts puttering out of the tube, any less pressure and it's just a weak red and yellow flame or dies out, here is a pic of the jet inside the T. And it is a .035 mig tip maybe sits to low now that I like at it? 1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said: BTW, that flame is looking pretty good. Thanks Mikey I'm pretty happy with with way it's turning out, not bad for my first one thanks to you guys of course, little more tweeking I think the flame is a bit narrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 What works for me is a 1" x 3/4" T. A 3/4" T has half the air intake area so it can't induce nearly as much combustion air. I found using a 3/4" T with a 0.030" mig tip touchier to tune but tunable. That's what caused me to try using 1" x 3/4" Ts and I'm much happier all round with them. I don't know what you're using for the fitting to mount the mig tip but the end is less than half way back from the throat. The fitting is also obstructing the air intake part of the burner. I think you have a lot of little problems adding up. If you want to keep most of this burner I'd put a 0.030" contact tip in it. Don't be surprised if you have to trim it back about where this one is to get it tuned. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose5124 Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 9 hours ago, Frosty said: What works for me is a 1" x 3/4" T. A 3/4" T has half the air intake area so it can't induce nearly as much combustion air. I found using a 3/4" T with a 0.030" mig tip touchier to tune but tunable. That's what caused me to try using 1" x 3/4" Ts and I'm much happier all round with them. I don't know what you're using for the fitting to mount the mig tip but the end is less than half way back from the throat. The fitting is also obstructing the air intake part of the burner. I think you have a lot of little problems adding up. If you want to keep most of this burner I'd put a 0.030" contact tip in it. Don't be surprised if you have to trim it back about where this one is to get it tuned. Frosty The Lucky. I have no problem switching out contact tips, but I misread the direction in your write up didn't realize you used that 1"x3/4" T, I'll start there and see what it does then try changing/shortening mig tips Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 Keep us in the loop please. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose5124 Posted June 3, 2017 Author Share Posted June 3, 2017 Changed to a 1"x3/4" T and left more space between the mig tip and beginning of the nipple, tried it with a .030 tip and couldn't get the flame to stay steady but went back to the .035 tip and work much better. Put a piece of 1/2" wrought iron and got it red hot fairly quickly it was easy to bend and hammer on but don't have an anvil yet so I can't do much but I think I'm making progress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 The problem was, you changed more than ONE thing. It's the prime rule of trouble shooting, change ONE thing and test. I mentioned the 0.030 mig tip as a POSSIBLE fix for the 3/4" T. not as the one to use in the 1" x 3/4" T. That looks a LOT better. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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