New forge with burner problems

[Brazer]

I got my forge built. Had some 1/8" steel plate laying around and made this forge before I started on my 5 gal propane tank forge. Interior measurements  are 4 1/2" wide x 9" deep x 3 3/4" high. It has 3" 2300 degree ceramic blanket on top and bottom, with 2" insulation on sides.

Front is open, back has size same opening as the front, but a steel door with 1" ceramic board coated with satanite closed.

Got 1/4" satanite on interior, and when I get the burner running right, bring up to temp to final cure before coating with Metrikote IR.

Problem is that I have a Goede 130,000 BTU burner, with the 30# reg. The mig tip orifice appears to be  an .021, and it  only likes rel high pressure and

don't burn right for beans. I changed to a .023 and it works better, but in the forge the flame huffs at times with 5-8 lbs pressure.  I tried an .030 mig tip and it works better

outside the forge. I will try it in the forge tomorrow and see if it is any better. Is lower pressure better in this 162 cu inch forge?

Am I over thinking this, or should I get a z burner.

I'll post some pics tomorrow.

By the way I read just about every burner 101 and researched so much I can't make up my mind.

[Frosty]

Running a small jet at high pressure is how folk who make poor burners get any kind of performance from them. That one is probably a lost cause or more work to correct than just making a good one.

If you put a Z, SideArm or a T burner in it to name but three similar types you need to either increase the volume of your forge to say 4.5" high or buy/build a 1/2" burner.

If you decide to build a T give me a shout.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Brazer]

Here are some pics Frosty.  The forge is similar to the discontinued Diamondback one burner forge.

Frosty, Will you let me know what I need to make a 1/2" T burner?

[Frosty]

The forge isn't the issue, if anything it's insulated about 50% better than most. It's the burner I think is junk. I recall searching out the website and not having anything good to say about them.

I like the looks of the forge, it's over built but we all do that. It has a nice stand with wheels to get it around easy. The forge has a nice extending helper, I think a helper is a must, especially on smaller forges.

Have a drill press? a 1/2" T burner will bring 160 cu/in to welding temp reliably, especially one as well insulated as yours. A T burner is about as easy to build as it gets with minimal shop skills.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Brazer]

I am a retired plumber with many tools except for a lathe and a mill. I would appreciate anything you can help me with. I have the expertise for firearms since 1970 and have

the mechanical ability to fabricate anything I can buy cheaper. Also the resources to junk the lousy burner but use anything else. Let me know what to get. I can get any

gas pipe fittings necessary.

[Brazer]

Frosty, If I use the burner ratios from your 3/4" Tee burner, I should adjust as follows:

1-  3/4"x1/2" black tee

1-  4"x 1/2" black nipple

1-  1/8" x1/4" flare fitting

1-  Mig tip Approximate size .023 ?

1-  1/2" pipe protector or cut a coupling in half

 

Have I got it right?

 

 

[Brazer]

(On the cutting the  coupling in half), that was for something else I was writing down about a table leg fix.

Sometimes my mind works out of sync with my typing.  When I read it this morning, I asked myself,  What the heck is cutting the coupling do?

Age has it own humor.

 

[Mikey98118]

Brazer,

Well, I looked up the burner, and it looks to me that you could use a square file to change those awful air openings into more helpful shapes, with very little additional work, and bring the burner up to at least acceptable performance. If you want more performance boosts after that, you could enlarge the openings into rectangular slots and sand bevels in the right directions on their front and rear edges; just a a thought. This would likely do you more good than giving up and throwing himself over a cliff BTW I've had many students feel like doing just that, when all they had left on a burner build was to tune it right...

I would love to know where to buy a MIG tip with a .020" orifice; it would be close to perfect on a 3/8"  Mikey burner.

[Brazer]

For it to burn, all the holes except for the top half holes works somewhat. Increasing the tip to .030 burned best, but the flame blows down on floor inside,

with a circular dark ring. I will  try to build a mini burner if that's what it takes.

[Frosty]

20 hours ago, Brazer said:

Frosty, If I use the burner ratios from your 3/4" Tee burner, I should adjust as follows:

1-  3/4"x1/2" black tee

1-  4"x 1/2" black nipple

1-  1/8" x1/4" flare fitting

1-  Mig tip Approximate size .023 ?

1-  1/2" pipe protector or cut a coupling in half

 

Have I got it right?

 

 

 That's about right, I think I listed the ratios and parts in the directions but maybe not. I wouldn't bother cutting a thread protector or coupler in half, the increase in diameter allows a longer length without friction inhibiting flow so a little one way or the other is insignificant.

The brass fitting you thread for the mig tip as listed is to connect to 1/4" copper tubing for the final fuel line. This is safer than rubber if the burners will be mounted standing up, when you shut it down heat directly from the forge chamber will heat the burner like a chimney. It's not a good place for rubber so I use copper. However if you mount the burners horizontally or as updraft like Teenylittlemetalguy does then convection will draw away from the burner and rubber is safe to use and you can use a 1/8" FPt x 1/4" FPT brass fitting and forget all the fittings needed to sub to the hose.

Mike has entered the thread and the burner that isn't working for you is a poor copy of one of his, he'll get yours trouble shot and working. Mike's a genuine expert in NA burners, where I assemble things to ball park specs and tune to perform Mike actually measured mig contact tips so he could build the things to perform like a Ferrari.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Brazer]

Thanks Frosty.  I will proceed with the Mini T burner tomorrow and report back when complete. What mig  tip size should I use to start?

I intended to use pipe nipples to get stainless gas supply hose away from top of forge. I should have entered from an angle off the top.

[Frosty]

0.025" is good. You want to avoid as many fittings and hard line attached to the burner as possible. The longer the hard connection the more leverage against the fittings so even a small jerk on the hose might break a fitting. Propane shooting out of a 1/4" pipe next to the forge is a bad thing. If you watch "Forged in Fire" take a look at how the propane hose and pipe connects to the forge manifold. There has to be a good foot sticking out with 6-8' of hose swinging between it and the tank. Now imagine someone tripping over it or dropping something on it. There is so much moment of leverage in the hard line at the burner manifold it wouldn't take much to break it off and the only shut off is the tank valve.

Just angle yours sideways so the hose can't rub the forge side, it's really well insulated so it's not a radiant IR threat so long as you don't get the hose near the doors. When the hose meets the table or stand simply attach it to the stand. That way if someone trips over or drops something on it the hose will give the whole table a jerk, not the small pipe fittings on the burner.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Brazer]

Frosty, I got the mini T burner operating. I adjusted in the forge. Since I got 2" of ceramic blanket and 1" ceramic rigid fiber board on ceiling, the 4" nipple and coupling reaches the formed cone in the rigid ceramic board. I just dropped the burner in up to the tee, on my vertical burner holder.  I used the 1" rigid fiber board on sides and top to be stiffer. Included pics show burner at 5# and 10# pressure. I only had a .023 mig tip for now. Nozzle is just half the diameter center of the 3/4" tee.

I should get a needle valve to adjust the gas at the final entrance to burner.  Sometimes it seems to burn a little better when I close one side of tee momentarily.

Any other pointers you can give me Frosty, would be appreciated.  Is it OK, or should I keep playing with the tuning. By the way, instead of keep shortening the mig tip,

I use thin washers for shims were the 1/8" threaded male end is if need be, to shorten the tip in the burner. Cheaper that way.

 

[Brazer]

Made a mini sidearm burner. Here it is running at 5# and 10# pressure. It's not in the forge yet. Had to change to standard 1 1/2" pipe because the other piece of 1 1/2" pipe      was too thick for the for flare on end of burner.

[Frosty]

Have you heated anything under the burners? I THINK the T is running a little lean but it's hard to tell. Do you have the mounting sleeve closed off so it can't draw raw air around the burner? When you say it burns a better when you close one side a little, have you let it run till the forge is hot? What color is the flame?

The flame's shape looks good but it's a little dark and transparent. The color of the SideArm is much better, pale and opaque is good flame color. Darker and transparent says a little lean to me.

Do you have more mig tips? If so try opening the one in the T a LITTLE with a torch tip file and test it again.

When you get one close to what it should be, heat a piece of steel to as hot as it'll get. If it scales in the forge it's lean, there is unconsumed oxy in the flame. If there is a LOT of orange in the exhaust coming out the door (dragon's breath) it's running rich.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Brazer]

Should I use a longer 1/2" nipple on the T burner so I can set it up and pack insulation around the holder?

 

[Frosty]

That I can't say, you just don't want the burner drawing extra air into the forge. It will act just like the jet in the burner and induce air if available. Try stripping off and rolling a little kaowool into a rope and packing it around the burner and see what it does to the fire. You don't need to pack the holder full, just block air flow and weird as it may sound blocking it completely may make things worse. It's part of tuning the flame.

IIRC you said the tube is 4.5"? If so it's fine, 4"-4.5" is middle range of right.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Brazer]

1/2" pipe nipple, 4" long. I changed out the burner holder to sch 40 1 1/2".  I will try it out tomorrow. I"ll try it with the reducing bushing 3/4"x1/2", to see if the increase

helps too. It worked on the mini sidearm burner.  I just got done making my twisting wrench from a spud wrench.  When I was a kid we called it a monkey wrench.

It is simple to do. Just weld a pipe handle on the outside of the adjustable jaw, and being smooth with no teeth it should fit whatever I need to twist.

Thanks Frosty.  My friends tell me I need a hobby.

But there's a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness.

[Frosty]

Where are you putting the bushing reducer? If it's to make a 3/4" T up to the 1/2" tube it won't work very well. You really need the 1/2" x 3/4" T for the smooth transition to reduce BAD turbulence. a bushing reducer is to abrupt and has too many sharp edges it screws up induction.

A monkey wrench's hook jaw doesn't cam tighter like a pipe wrench (Stilson) so they make much better twisting wrenches. They're the old school adjustable end wrench sort of replaced by the Crescent wrench design. Something I always have my eyes open for at yard, garage, etc. sales.

Well, there is and even sharper edge to mental illness, Paying too much attention to what your friends say.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Brazer]

Meant to say 3/4"x 1/2" reducer on the burner end,  like I had on the mini sidearm burner I made in the pictures.

Frosty, this is the wrench I was talking about

 

Frosty, here's some pics of the forge working to temp. I think I got the mini T working, so I put a piece of spring steel 1/2" square to see it heat up.

It was red really soon.  I let it heat up completely and put in my tong project. 3/8" thick  and it came up to temp, cherry red, so I could twist the jaws to shape

in the vise. Tomorrow I will put the Metrikote on, and fire up to finish the tongs.

Burner has 1/2" black nipple with a 3/4"x1/2" bell reducer for the flare. I covered the burner at the top of the 1 1/2" burner holder, it made a difference. I took your advice and opened up the mig tip to around .025-.026, judging by my oxy/ace tip cleaners.

With the garage door open, it is windy today, I just tuned the whole forge to face away.  Not much if any scale on any iron I had in the forge. Should be set right

I hope. No dragons breath blowing out the front. Used with backdoor closed. I didn't want to starve air by blocking the front any, figuring why waste the flames outside the forge.

Thanks, Frosty, you know what you're talking about. I will start on the propane tank forge now, after finishing the tongs.

[Frosty]

Sounds like you've got it, what little I can see of the flame in the first pic looks good. A couple minutes to take stock from cold to yellow is a good target. Stock in the size range you're using there that is.

Did the wind make the burner sputter? I have to set up wind screens if there's more than a little breeze blowing. sounds like yours work better than mine.

Now if you weld a piece of angle iron flange up below the opening you can close it by sliding fire bricks in or out. If you go this route use angle iron wide enough to hold a brick on edge of course but make the shelf as wide or a little wider than the forge body for better adjustability.

I declare you in business!

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Yup; that is mighty hot looking for a forge with a wide open exhaust!

[Brazer]

Thanks every one for your help. I bled this thread to the ground, and your patience was appreciated.

I'll start on my new propane tank forge. The tank is 12 1/2" x 13 1/2". It's and oddball size, but it will have height inside and some depth,

and I got a Z burner coming from Larry Zoeller. 

See you on the next thread.

[Frosty]

It's our pleasure and better still to advise someone who actually tries what we suggest.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Brazer]

I started work on my newest gas forge. The old propane tank seems shorter than most. Outside measurements are 12" x 13 1/2"high. It should make a real nice one burner forge,

with 2-3" insulation, depending on finished interior size. It will have a Z burner offset and angled for off center top to inside wall, hopefully creating a swirling flame,

not straight down like the last small one I made. I'll use one Z burner from Larry Zoeller.  The mini T that Frosty help me put together,  for the other small forge works great.

I hope to gain interior height and length. It maybe 8" x 10" inside, after ceramic blanket two 1" layers and 1/4" Satanite, topped with Metrikote.

I made a full hinged front door to make it easier to insulate and repair in future. Front door opening is 5" x 4 1/2" high, I will provide, which as Frosty suggested, an angle iron at top of door

outside, with a steel deck outside to block door with firebrick. I still haven't cut in the back door yet. Trying to figure what size it should be. I will make a 1" ceramic covered hinged back

door, like the last one. Stand will be made last, or I might switch it with the stand from the smaller one.