CMS3900 Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Grussing, was the Smith who told you this at Tracys Hammer-In, Mr. Martin? If you set your burner in a location similar to the Ellis forge on High Temp Tools, it should work well. As for the hardware, don't you have a lowes or home depot or a fastenal around where you live? Of course McMaster Carr is going to rake you over the coals for a few things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamboat Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 6 hours ago, Grussingcustomknives said: I ordered some parts on mc master carr (including 1/8 inch scedule 80 pipe 5 inches long) and it was spendy i had too order 8 ss set screws they were 5-6 bucks a piece!!! Goodness, what SPECIFIC stainless set screws did you order? What is the McMaster-Carr part number for them? Are you sure that's the price per piece, or did you actually order packages of them? Check your order. McMaster often sells items like that by the "package," with some minimum quantity of fasteners per package. Or, did you order some really exotic variety, like swivel set screws? Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's possible that you might end up with a lot of extra set screws (they're good about returns, however). Steamboat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grussingcustomknives Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 54 minutes ago, Steamboat said: Goodness, what SPECIFIC stainless set screws did you order? What is the McMaster-Carr part number for them? Are you sure that's the price per piece, or did you actually order packages of them? Check your order. McMaster often sells items like that by the "package," with some minimum quantity of fasteners per package. Or, did you order some really exotic variety, like swivel set screws? Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it's possible that you might end up with a lot of extra set screws (they're good about returns, however). Steamboat Yeah about that lol there packs of 10 lol 2 hours ago, CMS3900 said: Grussing, was the Smith who told you this at Tracys Hammer-In, Mr. Martin? If you set your burner in a location similar to the Ellis forge on High Temp Tools, it should work well. As for the hardware, don't you have a lowes or home depot or a fastenal around where you live? Of course McMaster Carr is going to rake you over the coals for a few things. No it was another guy but he recommended them I know I might get some hate for this but I decided im gonna u this porter burner in my other forge and use forced air with this one (final decision lol) that way i have 2 options. So I have some questions regarding forced air... First what is that part that shuts off the the gas if the power shuts off (or acidently unplug the fan)? What happens if u don't have it and the power goes out? Anyone know any good focred air plans? I ordered the blacksmith depot 112 cfm that will be good for my forge 5.5" id (when insulated and coated) I will probably cut the length to 12-13" inches long. I also still don't get what size of pipe to make the burner i see some people use 1.5",1.75" or 2" pipe. thanks in advance for help and understanding! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamboat Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 11 minutes ago, Grussingcustomknives said: Yeah about that lol there packs of 10 lol Good. Now you can get most of your money back when you return the extras. That should pay for more materials for your project. Steamboat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS3900 Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 The device that shuts the gas off if the fire goes out, the fan is unplugged, or power goes out is your hand. You always want a small ball valve where the gas goes into the main air pipe at the forge to turn on or off the gas, that can be easily and readily accessed with or without a gloved hand. Did you look up the Don Fogg forge, the burner design part of that is the same as a horizontal forge. Also, https://www.abana.org/downloads/pipeforge_plans.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grussingcustomknives Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 2 hours ago, CMS3900 said: The device that shuts the gas off if the fire goes out, the fan is unplugged, or power goes out is your hand. You always want a small ball valve where the gas goes into the main air pipe at the forge to turn on or off the gas, that can be easily and readily accessed with or without a gloved hand. Did you look up the Don Fogg forge, the burner design part of that is the same as a horizontal forge. Also, https://www.abana.org/downloads/pipeforge_plans.pdf Yea i checked that out and thats made of 2 inch pipe and my forge is only 5.5 inches id. What controls the diamiter the forced air burner can use. Like the one at high temp tools it says its good for 8" id or bigger. And I want to build one that will be a good size for my forge thats kinda like that one and ed caffrey's burner he made Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS3900 Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 When I started my gas forge build I tried to math it all out, and then realized that it wasn't really important to make the forge work with forced air. Scale the size down till it looks right and roll with it. The blown forge is not as temperamental as a NA forge. Have good adjustments on air and fuel, as they control how hot the forge will get, or what type of flame you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grussingcustomknives Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 17 minutes ago, CMS3900 said: When I started my gas forge build I tried to math it all out, and then realized that it wasn't really important to make the forge work with forced air. Scale the size down till it looks right and roll with it. The blown forge is not as temperamental as a NA forge. Have good adjustments on air and fuel, as they control how hot the forge will get, or what type of flame you have. Have any pictures of your forge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS3900 Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 PM sent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Wrote a long involved response to this which unfortunately go lost to the posting gremlin. Don't have time or energy to repeat myself, sorry. Gist was that for a blown burner the mixing tube diameter is more a function of the blower selection than the forge size. The burner outlet is another case, as the diameter, or number of ports, or flame retention style nozzle needs to be able to operate at the correct velocity for the quantity of fuel/gas mixture you need to produce the heat. Bottom line, my recommendation is to take a good look at the simple Don Fogg design, use few long sweep elbows, add a normally closed solenoid valve if you ever plan on walking out of the room and leaving your forge on, use a multi-port (ribbon) burner head or some form of enlarged flame retention nozzle and the 1-1/2" or 2" mixing tube should be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grussingcustomknives Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 19 minutes ago, Latticino said: Wrote a long involved response to this which unfortunately go lost to the posting gremlin. Don't have time or energy to repeat myself, sorry. Gist was that for a blown burner the mixing tube diameter is more a function of the blower selection than the forge size. The burner outlet is another case, as the diameter, or number of ports, or flame retention style nozzle needs to be able to operate at the correct velocity for the quantity of fuel/gas mixture you need to produce the heat. Bottom line, my recommendation is to take a good look at the simple Don Fogg design, use few long sweep elbows, add a normally closed solenoid valve if you ever plan on walking out of the room and leaving your forge on, use a multi-port (ribbon) burner head or some form of enlarged flame retention nozzle and the 1-1/2" or 2" mixing tube should be fine. ed caffrey gave me some good advice my burner will use the 112 cfm blower I ordered... the main body will be made of 1.5 inch pipe and thr burner tube will be 1.25 inches it will have a gate valve to control the air and Im still deciding if I will use a needle valve or ball valve to control the gas flow. also don't know what part to weld to the pipe (for gas) or what piece to even weld on it. the burner will kinda be like high temp tools forced air burner design Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 I prefer a regulator to control gas, with additional 1/4 turn ball valve for isolation. From what ive read, Ed seems to know his stuff, but don't know where he gets the 1 inch of blanket insulation is superior to two inches of thickness. That runs counter to my understanding of thermodynamic heat transfer and my interpretation of the manufacturer's published material specifications. Burner outlet design is critical to good stable performance. Please consider a ribbon burner. I can hook you up with a guy who sells them for around 70 bucks. If you don't know what or where to weld the gas connection, then you shouldn't be building a burner. Look at the link to the Fogg burner. It should be obvious from that. Note that your weld must be gas tight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grussingcustomknives Posted September 2, 2016 Author Share Posted September 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Latticino said: I prefer a regulator to control gas, with additional 1/4 turn ball valve for isolation. From what ive read, Ed seems to know his stuff, but don't know where he gets the 1 inch of blanket insulation is superior to two inches of thickness. That runs counter to my understanding of thermodynamic heat transfer and my interpretation of the manufacturer's published material specifications. Burner outlet design is critical to good stable performance. Please consider a ribbon burner. I can hook you up with a guy who sells them for around 70 bucks. If you don't know what or where to weld the gas connection, then you shouldn't be building a burner. Look at the link to the Fogg burner. It should be obvious from that. Note that your weld must be gas tight! I don't really want to a ribbon burner... I have the general idea where to put it (from ed's picture of his) but not exactly what spot (mabye it doesn't need to be precise im just used to na burners) Would it be ok to put a ball valve and needle valve (ball valve for shutoff and needle valve to precisely adjust gas even tho i have a regulator) and he said 1 inch is better because inswool needs to get to a certain temp before it reflects heat and 1 inch gets up too temp faster. Ps. I attached a picture of his burner he uses a needle valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 I have heard his theory before regarding the 1 inch thickness being better, but respectfully disagree. The portion of the lining that would reflect the heat is the inner surface. If the forge reaches say welding temperature, the inner surface of either a 1 inch or 2 inch thickness will be essentially the same temperature. The only difference is that the 1 inch thickness will lose more of that heat through the skin. Logically if the inner thickness reflects any of the heat, the more of that thickness you have the more heat reflected. Oh and his blower is 180 degrees rotated out of position. Set that way he loses close to 25 percent of capacity. A perfect example of "breaking the back" of the blower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 I like 1" cause then you can do 2 layers and replace *1* of them as needed cheaper and easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grussingcustomknives Posted September 2, 2016 Author Share Posted September 2, 2016 24 minutes ago, Latticino said: I have heard his theory before regarding the 1 inch thickness being better, but respectfully disagree. The portion of the lining that would reflect the heat is the inner surface. If the forge reaches say welding temperature, the inner surface of either a 1 inch or 2 inch thickness will be essentially the same temperature. The only difference is that the 1 inch thickness will lose more of that heat through the skin. Logically if the inner thickness reflects any of the heat, the more of that thickness you have the more heat reflected. Oh and his blower is 180 degrees rotated out of position. Set that way he loses close to 25 percent of capacity. A perfect example of "breaking the back" of the blower. Ok thanks. U must have missed my questions so I have the general idea where to put it (from ed's picture of his) but not exactly what spot (mabye it doesn't need to be precise im just used to na burners) Would it be ok to put a ball valve and needle valve (ball valve for shutoff and needle valve to precisely adjust gas even tho i have a regulator) by the way do u have a picture of your forge? 6 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said: I like 1" cause then you can do 2 layers and replace *1* of them as needed cheaper and easier. Dont get what u mean because u said u like 1 inch and u do 2 layers thats 2 inches. We mean having 1 inch of insulation or 2 inch (either 2 inch kaowool or 2 layers of 1 inch) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS3900 Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 What Thomas is saying is, regardless of how much opulence you spend on your forge, the lining will need to be replaced at some point. If you do 2 1" layers instead of 1 2" layer you can replace one layer vs. the whole thing. Latticino, are you you saying that because the blower is hanging below the forge is somehow it is less effective? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 7 hours ago, CMS3900 said: Latticino, are you you saying that because the blower is hanging below the forge is somehow it is less effective? No I mean that the blower is connected to the steel pipe in an inefficient fashion. It should be rotated 180 degrees about the axis of the pipe at the connection point for best effect. I have posted an earlier photo of my forge, while it was still in development. Am in process of setting up a new one and will post when done. Probably won't help you through as I use industrial burner parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 n.b.: Many people like to have an elbow in the system to help mix propane and air better and so turbulent flow is a feature and not a flaw that you want to design out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grussingcustomknives Posted September 2, 2016 Author Share Posted September 2, 2016 On August 29, 2016 at 11:51 AM, ThomasPowers said: Can't search on the book names to see who wrote them? I drop students who can't do basic work on their own---unless they are paying me for my time. Yea i will too like the one ed built... But i called black smith depot and the said the blower cant be mounted upright it has too be mounted flat on its feet. Im thinking the burner tube will be 16 abd the burners body will be nade from a 15 inch pipe with a gate valve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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