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advantages between gas forges and coke forges


Jacks

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really, coke has very few advantages over gas.. so it really becomes a bit of personal preference, and the point has been argued for a while and by many.

anyway, with coke, its more traditional and you can get spot heating, and welding is fairly easy..(not coal.. coke)

and gas you can heat up alot of metal, no-low maitenance, easy, can weld, ect...
oh, and both fuels cost alot and polute more carbon than was put into them, or something like that..

charcoal on the other hand has a neutral or positive carbon emmision (which is good) if your eco minded, but more fuel is consumed, and its harder to get a hot hot heat compared to coke.

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Well the biggest difference is localized heating you can do with coke or coal. Coke is also much hotter burning than gas. Also you have a better atmosphere nuetral to carborizing with coke/coal so you have almost no scale.

Gas you will find easier to tend but will have more scale and will not be able to do localized heats.

Just my 2 cents

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Well the biggest difference is localized heating you can do with coke or coal. Coke is also much hotter burning than gas. Also you have a better atmosphere nuetral to carborizing with coke/coal so you have almost no scale.

Gas you will find easier to tend but will have more scale and will not be able to do localized heats.

Just my 2 cents


a gas forge run rich will form little to no scale.. mine produces less than my coke forge..
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Around here its hard to get coke, but easy to get propane. Propane forges limit you to the size of your piece too. You have to be able to fit it in there. Personally I like a side blast coke forge. It gets things hot, quick, right where I want it to, with much less scale then the propane forges I have used in the past.

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I am frustrated with all the concern over net carbon output. I am a degreed engineer with who has read alot on the subject and been involved in air pollution reduction. The few hundred pounds or less of carbon that a seroius hobiest would emit from coal or coke forge will put out over a year is inconsequential. (about as much carbon as Al Gore's private jet that transports him emits in few minutes) You could contact Mr. Gore and see if you could buy some carbon credits,if you feel guilty.

On the subject of charcoal, I could never in good concsious (sp) recommend any smith burning charcoal for enviromental reasons. The poster is correct that charcoal is "carbon nuetral" but about 50% of the energy of wood goes up in smoke with many carcinigins and unburt hydrocarbons. Thus 50% of the value of wood is wasted in the form air pollution.

I worked as a consultant to the charcoal industry in Missouri trying to reduce the pollution and energy waste. At one time, several years ago, charcoal porduction was the largest single source of air pollution in the state. (i don't have current data but I doubt the situation has not changed much) The working conditions in the charcoal industry is horrible. I discussed with my manager the hazards of the industry. We discused the risks the employees faced included CO (carbon monoxide) poisoning, black lung disease, tars (carcinigens) etc etc. At some charcoal facilities we were amazed that the employees were not overcome by CO.

A very enviromentally unfriendly industry. Coal and coke production are not without enviromental impact but much much less than charcoal.

"Dirty Jobs" had program on chracoal production however they did not show the most polluting process, the pyrolysis of the wood in a Missouri Kiln. The air pollution from one kiln can be detected form many miles from the kiln.

The situation in the 3rd world is worse. Charcoal production is a major contributor to deforestation and air pollution.

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I dont want this to end up in an eco debate.. but I dont see how coal has less an impact than charcoal.. it has to be escavated (deforestation) burnt (major sulfur and co/other toxins) plus its non renewable..

but ya, charcoal is has its flaw's.. I personally am working on an oil furnace right now, because of this. the whole things like trying to find the lesser of two evils.. its all evil but whatever..

I like the line about gore's jet ;) hadn't thought about that.

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Aside from environmental concerns, or even preferences about heating processes, it is important to consider what atmosphere is being produced in your immediate area (your shop). I do not have the specifics handy for me, though I do know that propane constantly produces carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, sulphur dioxide among other nasties; coke (I am referring to quality metallurgical grade) also produces similar gases, though in slightly less amounts per BTU produced; coal is at the lower end of the scale, and with poor coal, will produce vast amounts of sulphur dioxide. I never tried charcoal, so I can't comment on it. ALL forges also produce particulate matter, which is bad for your lungs - this includes gas forges, as there is a constant deterioration of the lining of the forge (be it ceramic wool or high temp cement/clay).
Number one: what do you have for good ventilation?
Number two: do you have a functioning carbon monoxide detector?
Number three: is your work and are your products more suited to gas or open fire? A small gas forge does you no good if you want to weld wagon tires, conversely a large open fire is a waste if you are doing a production run of fire pokers.
.
Me, I use propane, coal or coke, depending on the work I am doing. I am fortunate to have all three choices in my shop.

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To those blacksmiths burning coal, and concerned about environmental concerns, please read the entire post.

BP0051 Good Coal
To move 2 megabytes of data on the internet, approximately one pound of coal is used.

A trace element concentration of 1 ppm = 0.0001% by weight, or expressed in another way, a 1 ppm concentration of a trace element equals one pound in one million pounds (500 tons) of coal.

Coal is made up primarily of "organic" elements (carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen) and "inorganic" elements (primarily silicon, aluminum, iron, calcium, magnesium, titanium, sodium, potassium, and sulfur). Organic elements comprise the combustible body of the coal, whereas the inorganic elements are present in coal in minerals that largely form the ash when the coal is burned.

A table of statistical correlations of trace elements with ash yield, in decreasing order of significance, includes Chromium (Cr), Thorium (Th), Scandium (Sc), Cesium (Cs), Rubidium (Rb), Lithium (Li), Vanadium (V), Hafnium (Hf), Cerium (Ce), Lanthanum (La), Zirconium (Zr), Tantalum (Ta), Niobium (Nb), Dysprosium (Dy), Holmium (Ho), Lead (Pb), Samarium (Sm), Europium (Eu), Gallium (Ga) and Tellurium (Te). These elements likely occur within mineral matter in coal. Most of these elements probably occur in silicate minerals, especially clay minerals, which make up 60-70% of the mineral matter in coals.

In 2003 According to American Electric Power, in the Charleston Daily Mail newspaper, it is:

The largest generator of electricity in the United States.
The largest user in the world of West Virginia coal, purchasing about 26 million tons annually.

John Amos Power Plant (St. Albans, WV) burned 7.2 million tons of coal in 2002. It took about 640 coal miners to supply that fuel.

American Electric Power Co, John Amos Power Plant
Chart presentation - Pollutants 1998 to 2005
Table presentation - Pollutants 1998 to 2005

I don't know about you folks, but it would take a good bit of effort on my part to burn 7.2 million TONS of coal.

Now lets put this into prospective,
* a 1 ppm concentration of a trace element equals one pound in one million pounds (500 tons) of coal. or

* if you burn a ton of coal a year you have to blacksmith for 500 years, to produce 1 pound of trace element material, at 1 ppm in your location. (500 years ago Columbus discovered America).

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Having acquired a gas forge about 7 months ago, after Blacksmithing for around 8 years only using coal/coke I would mostly have to agree with Mike Tanner on his points.

I like the convenience of gas, turn on turn off, 10 min to working temp.

It is very limited in its size, careful planning of work so that I make all components before assembly, after assembly then tweak with oxy/ac. whereas with coal you can stick the whole piece in generally however shapen/whatever size.

I get lots of scale in my gas forge, have tried a few things, no success yet in reducing scale.

To my mind, both gas and coal aren't good for environment, its all burning something. Coal does feel a bit more ''natural' to me tho. I am yet to try charcoal.

Coal has advantage, you can make big fire, or very, very small fire if required/desired and you have much more control over the heating of a piece, control over the blower- I prefer hand turned. Whereas in my gas forge, its either all four engines:) (burners) go, or nothing.

Boils down to jobs at hand and personal preference. I like the ritual and romanticism of making a fire. Having said that, I find myself using the gas forge more, because I tend to work in sporadic spurts of a few hours at at time out in the workshop, then back in the house, etc.

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I find my little charcoal forge lights in a few minutes. I clear it out, place a firelighter and bit of charcoal in front tof the tuyere, and apply a match. Once it's lit I switch on the air and add charcoal on top of the fire. I then get tools and stock I will need out and about 10 minutes later I am placing the first iron in to heat.

Shutdown is quite simple; switch off blower :D I usually douse the fire and save as much fuel as I can unless I'm leaving somethign to aneal overnight. I usually have less than 3 handfulls of fuel in the forge at a time though, so just switching off the air doesn't waste much.

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