bigb Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 I just picked it up off Craigslist. I have everything cept the regular. Any suggestions on what to get for a regulator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 That doesn't appear to have used a regulator the fitting on the 1/4 turn ball valve is a propane tank fitting. Is there a speed control on the blower motor? If the blower is running at the motor's rated speed it's going to use a lot of fuel. If you can adjust the blower speed then you will at least want a better fuel control than a 1/4 turn ball valve as it has now. Regardless with a hard refractory liner and wide open ends it's going to be a fuel hog. On the other hand it may be just the ticket for large stock, heating long stock, etc. Relining it is always an option and If it uses fuel like I think it will relining will pay for itself pretty quickly. I see a lot of potential and it may already be a heck of a forge as it is. Have you fired it up yet? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Cross post with Frosty. We agree, as usual How much do you want to spend? I like this type for a basic propane tank (preferably with a gage attached) These are available at many locations. URL may not be acceptable here, but google propane regulators and you'll find them: Looks like you already have the fitting to go to the tank, so that will help. If you haven't piped gas lines before, please get help, do some research, use gas pipe tape or dope, and test all your joints. BTW it is hard to tell, but if the tank insulation is just high temp cast refractory this thing may be a bit of a gas hog. See how hot the exterior shell gets when firing up. You may wish to reinsulate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigb Posted May 4, 2016 Author Share Posted May 4, 2016 When I saw the propane bottle hookup I thought the same, they must have used it without a regulator. Wasn't thinking of how much gas it will use. I am slowly acquiring the knowledge to build a NA propane forge with a Kao wool lining but when this one popped up for $50 I thought I'd grab it. Glad that I did because I got the Mouse Hole anvil in my other thread and this forge all for $150. So the reason this could be a gas hog is because the refractory material will have bigger heat losses than a wool lining? The PO was using the fire bricks for doors, will that help? He did say it got hot enough to weld in no time flat. He was using a 50 lb propane bottle. I could also remove the blower and put a NA burner in the pipe and rotate the forge around so the pipe is more on top. I am at a standstill presently with my build as I fear I bought too big of a pipe at 12.5" diameter 3/16" wall. I may start over with a freon cylinder that I have kicking around. Latticino no worries, have done plenty of gas piping. Worked as a plumber for a while before becoming a sparky. I did find that regulator in 1-30 PSI and 1-60 PSI, thinking 1-30 would be good? Frosty there is no speed control on the 3000 RPM squirrel cage blower. The PO used duct tape to reduce the intake. I will make an adjustable sheet metal gate like I did on my coal forge blower to limit air flow at the intake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Good Morning, A 30 would work, but you wouldn't be able to experiment. I would get the 60, add a gauge, buy the fitting that will allow you to screw in the fitting you have on the hose. Don't restrict the air "IN" to the Blower, Put a Gate Valve in the Air "OUT" as an adjustable restricter. Way more Gooder that whey. No need to adjust Fan Speed. Is there a jet/restricter after where the flex hose joins the burner? I have used this kind of system without a jet, but it is way more adjustable with a jet. Start Cold, Get it Hot, Don't let it go BANG!! Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 NO that was a good score for $50. Just the hose and tank fitting are a $30.00 bill easy. I'd just reline it. It's already on a stand at a nice height, has helpers front and rear. the blower is mounted and fuel plumbed It just needs some tweaking. I'd reline it with 2 layers of 1" 8lb Kaowool and kiln wash it with an IR reflective wash. Wayne Coe supplies good kiln washes at a much better price than ICT-100. I'd put a kiln shelf floor in it that is wide enough to restrict the volume more to my liking and make doors. The blower motor appears to be self ventilated so it doesn't rely on the blower for cooling air. This means you can restrict the air intake without effecting the motor at all. It will actually reduce the load so the motor won't work so hard. You can restrict the output too but it's not as easy as a simple slide gate on the intake. Either work just fine and reduce the motor load. Once you can control how much air is going in you need to control the fuel. The regulator pictured is a high volume reg and will supply plenty of gas. A 1-30 should be enough but it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. I'd buy a 1-60 just to be sure, you can always turn it down but you can't turn it above max. This is going to be a sweet forge with a little tweaking. Great score! Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Not to be overly pedantic, but: Air outlet restrictions for the blower will "ride the fan curve" by increasing the system external static pressure (ESP, seriously... that is the acronym). This will increase the load on the motor, though probably not a big issue as far as energy cost goes with these fractional horsepower motors we use in our forges. Slide gate air inlet restriction changes the characteristics of the blower itself (the characteristic fan curve). This will affect how the motor runs in more unpredictable ways, but more often than not will lower the load against the motor, as Frosty noted. On my forge I use air inlet restriction for gross tuning and a butterfly valve on the outlet for fine tuning, but there is no reason to go for both. One last thing you may want to check is the orifice size for the propane jet inside the burner. It is far from critical with a blown burner and good regulator, but if you are having trouble tuning the burner that may be the culprit. Doors are a big help. If it can reach welding temperatures I'd certainly use it just as is for a welding gas forge. With that refractory shell it will be less prone to damage from flux. You can always make a second can with better insulation for more efficient forging later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 There are different blower fans and they must behave differently. I've had it proven to me that blocking the flow on a transparent (Free Flow) blower lowers the power the motor has to exert. A simple test is just block inlet or outlet and listen to the motor speed up. You can use a "potentiometer?" Ammeter? to measure elec draw too and watch the power draw lower. (I have a multimeter and can watch the needle move but that's about the limit of my electronics know how.) If I block the outlet of my Champ hand crank it turns easier and will free wheel longer. Not to argue but I have direct hands on experience that a blocked "transparent" blower draws less power. The "transparent" term (Free Flow) refers to a pump, blower, fluid system that doesn't stop the flow be it liquid, gas or? if stopped. Give blowing through a blower by mouth sometime unless it's really small you wont be able to feel resistance. A piston pump is a "positive flow" pump, block it's outlet and it'll lock up if pumping a liquid block the inlet and it'll cavitate. Turn it off and flow is stopped like a closed valve. Pumping a gas it compresses it to the limit of it's power. Shut off and the compressed gas can't pass. Free flow are high volume low pressure and Positive Flow are high pressure low volume, relatively speaking, there are some really high volume positive flow pumps, see "Roots Blower " Or IIRC, "Progressive Cavitation pump." We used to call the latter, "peanut butter pumps," one of their commercial applications is to pump stuff you wouldn't think could be pumped. We used them on the drill rig to make sure water or mud was going down the hole. Lots of volume and if blocked would stall out a 4-53 Detroit Diesel or in one occasion blow the 2,800psi hyd. hose we used to feed the water swivel and drill string. I got ramblin again didn't I. Talking about pumps trips memories.Want to talk about plumbing hydraulics? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Frosty, My mistake, don't know where my mind was when I posted that. The fan laws of similarity are quite clear, and it is a cubic relationship. If you reduce the airflow a fan develops (CFM) the brake horsepower the motor uses should go down by the cube of the CFM ratio (would put in the formula, but no time right now). However, the inlet change does effect the fan characteristics, so there we no longer have "similar" fans. The motor speeding up may be evident, depending on what type of motor you use, but it is experiencing less resistance, so may not be drawing more power, even if it is turning faster. That is one worth checking empirically. It is an ammeter to measure the current draw to calculate the power the motor is using for a particular task. The voltage stays essentially the same and the power draw in watts is just the product of that voltage and the current (for single phase, multi phase is more complicated). Typically I use an Amprobe that wraps around one leg of the power to do testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 The fellow who proved it to me drew a bunch of formulae which was a loss on me. He convinced me when he told me to go out and put my hand over the outlet. I know you deal with this stuff for a living I really gave myself a pucker disagreeing but I was more than ready to learn what you meant. JUST please don't make me sit in a corner and look at formulae! I'll be good I promise. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigb Posted May 5, 2016 Author Share Posted May 5, 2016 21 hours ago, swedefiddle said: Is there a jet/restricter after where the flex hose joins the burner? I have used this kind of system without a jet, but it is way more adjustable with a jet. Start Cold, Get it Hot, Don't let it go BANG!! Neil Not sure if there is a jet, I'll have to take a look. Would it be a mig tip like the NA burners use? The PO said "These fire up with a bang". Guess maybe because he didn't have a regulator? I am used to the "POP" when I light an OA torch, is that what I should get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 It probably doesn't have a "jet" as you'd see in a NA burner but the gas supply pipe certainly doesn't have an open end NOT AT TANK PRESSURE!!! If the maker followed the typical placement it has a small hole drilled in the side away from the blower about center in the burner tube. Propane burners always light with a woof to a poof,rarely with a BANG. It does happen though IF you don't light it before you turn the gas on. I light mine with a piece of burning paper. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigb Posted May 6, 2016 Author Share Posted May 6, 2016 I ordered the regulator that Latticino recommended, looking for the 1/4" NPT gauge. I am looking for a simple pressure gauge that is rated for propane correct? as opposed to a flow gauge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted May 6, 2016 Share Posted May 6, 2016 Correct. Good luck, be safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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