Brick Pile - Frosty T - Gas forge - Tuning help.

[GottMitUns]

Thank you very much Alan!

 

Russell

[Frosty]

I've been forbidden out of this thread since the last time I replied. I'm trying to reply quickly with fingers crossed.

Well said Alan you were much clearer than I. You can close down the exhaust openings more with commercial burners than homemade ones. Commercially manufactured burner tubes are tapered full length so they are stronger induction devices and much less susceptible to back pressure external breezes, etc.

After a while a person can listen to the burner and forge while closing the openings and determine when they're adversely affecting the burner(s) with back pressure. It's like any tool they speak to us we just have to pay attention and learn the language.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Mikey98118]

Folks in the UK used butane instead of transferring to propane back when we did over here. Nowadays they are replacing straight butane with LPG mixtures (60% butane and 40% propane). But naturally aspirated burners were pretty standard on their brazing equipment for decades; they used a fan-blown burner to heat the ceramic chips in an open forge with low pressure butane, and a naturally aspirated burner mounted on a hose for additional heat for the area being hard brazed. You can still buy this equipment in  England; they also make very advanced naturally aspirated LPG hand torch systems; I think the brand is Bullfinch.

 

[Alan Evans]

Interesting...where did you glean this information? I have to say it is not the England that I know!

I do remember at my school that we had a couple of fan blown brazing torches in the metalwork shop along side an ordinary side blast coke hearth. This was in the sixties. And I would have said they were made by Alcosa but now you mention Bullfinch that does ring a vague bell.

I did see one of the Alcosa ceramic chip hearths you mention in a sale when they closed another school workshop down a few years later. And I think there was one lurking in one of the workshops at the college I attended but I always used the coke fire there.

I have been working professionally since the mid seventies as a jeweller/silversmith and then blacksmith and have only ever used the Sievert atmospheric propane torches. LPG comes in either butane or propane for domestic heating purposes, but I have never seen butane used in any industrial or craft work set up in that period, or come across this 60/40 mix you refer to...most intriguing!

Must be blind as a bat.

Alan

 

[Mikey98118]

Alan,

The original hearths stopped being made and the company closed down in the early sixties, but you could still find them used when I looked into the  subject back in 2006. I don't even recognize the Alcosa brand, but a company called Flamefast was selling an updated version of this system using gas heated ceramic chips for forge/brazing hearth/casting furnaces, with hand held air-gas torches, and their main customers seemed to be schools; they even contacted me to ask permission to use  my burners as part of their system, but never actually did. I will now have to look up Alcosa.

I've only been to London once, but from what I've read on newsgroups its just as easy for me to research industrial products from Seattle as it is for the locals there; we all seem to do our best research on the Net. Do you have a differing view? Am I getting a false impression by reading postings from the eternally clueless, or is finding industrial tooling and suppleis there harder than over here? I bought a Bullfinch torch system; that's how I learned to simply cut the fuel hose at the regulator end and replace an English reg with an American model the easy way. the flame control on the Bullfinch system is wonderful, but the torch is over large.

BTW, the 60/40 mixture has become standard for fuel canisters over there as near as  I can tell, and when I looked back in2006 it is what they were calling "LPG"

[Charlotte]

Around 2000 I looked into the ceramic chip set up and found they were English and expensive.  I wanted to create one using other materials but eventually gave up.  I toyed with the Idea of using petroleum coke instead of the ceramic chips but never got around to building a test unit.   The pet coke I had available was very dense and would only burn with extreme  air over supply.

[Alan Evans]

On 24 December 2015 at 2:56 AM, Mikey98118 said:

Alan,

The original hearths stopped being made and the company closed down in the early sixties, but you could still find them used when I looked into the  subject back in 2006. I don't even recognize the Alcosa brand, but a company called Flamefast was selling an updated version of this system using gas heated ceramic chips for forge/brazing hearth/casting furnaces, with hand held air-gas torches, and their main customers seemed to be schools; they even contacted me to ask permission to use  my burners as part of their system, but never actually did. I will now have to look up Alcosa.

I've only been to London once, but from what I've read on newsgroups its just as easy for me to research industrial products from Seattle as it is for the locals there; we all seem to do our best research on the Net. Do you have a differing view? Am I getting a false impression by reading postings from the eternally clueless, or is finding industrial tooling and suppleis there harder than over here? I bought a Bullfinch torch system; that's how I learned to simply cut the fuel hose at the regulator end and replace an English reg with an American model the easy way. the flame control on the Bullfinch system is wonderful, but the torch is over large.

BTW, the 60/40 mixture has become standard for fuel canisters over there as near as  I can tell, and when I looked back in2006 it is what they were calling "LPG"

Now you mention it I do remember the name Flamefast. Alcosa is associated with William Alldays is associated with Alldays and Onions and subsequently Alldays and Peacock in my mind. I think Vaughans may have now taken over the trade names, or maybe they just market the products. Two of my Air Hammers are Alldays and Onions...no longer manufacturing, though I think Alldays and Peacock were still making forge and furnace fans a few years ago. The hammers were a development of the Pilkington hammer, Pilkington were taken over by Alldays and Onions.

However the 60/40 Propane Butane mix gas is still a mystery. LPG is just Liquified Petroleum Gas whether it is in Propane or Butane, but the actual gas is always specified. You have caused me to check on the websites of all the gas suppliers I know, and the only possible thing is something they call Patio gas which is, as the name implies, for patio heaters and barbecues. But I could not find a specification for the gas used.

All the companies do the standard red Propane and blue Butane cylinders.

All my red cylinders have the word Propane printed on them. Whereas any of the mixed shielding gases have the various colour band on the top to show the percentage of CO2 to Argon for instance. I am sure if they were an LPG mix they would state so.

This is from the uklpg.org site:- What is LPG?

LP Gas stands for liquefied petroleum gas and in the UK is either propane or butane. It is produced as a bi -product of crude oil refinning or natural gas extraction.

Propane is used primarily for central heating, hot-water, gas-fires, convector heaters and, of course, for cooking. Gas is essential, if you want a living flame fire and LP Gas is ideal.

Butane is used mainly in cylinders for portable applications in mobile heaters in the home, and for leisure activities such as boats, caravans and barbecues. Butane cylinders are available from a vast network of retail......

 

Be interesting to know who gave you the 60/40 information.

The largest industrial gas supplier is BOC... British Oxygen Company, their competitors are Air Products and Air Liquide.

The largest LPG specialist is Calor or Calorgas, competitors include Handygas and Flogas

You could have a look on their websites to see if you have better luck finding the 60/40 LPG mix.

Alan

[Alan Evans]

I have just noticed on Vaughans' web site which is anvils.co.uk... that their listed Alcosa ceramic chip hearth is illustrated by one with Flamefast written on it...so I think it is all fairly well mixed up.

Alan

[ThorsHammer82]

I will be putting this forge back into use here very soon. I've got a bar foot bar to build that will have some scrolling on the ends, and on the floor mounts. Luckily I scored a 100 lbs propane tank full for $100. looking forward to getting that monster into use.