Light Hammer Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 Hello all,I'm drawing up a new style Kinyon air hammer. Looking at the pictures I can find, it appears that the leaf spring used in the design is relatively flat with an eye to eye distance of around 20". I looked at trailer springs and they seem to all be arched in the 3" range. For those who have studied this topic or those who have built a Kinyon; where would I find an appropriate spring for the build? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSW Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 The guy I deal with for heavy truck springs can make me whatever I want/need. He can also change the arch in an existing spring if need be as another option. I'd suggest going and talking to someone like this. Skip Pepboys and other box type stores and find yourself a place that just does springs and heavy suspension work and I bet they can set you up either with something stock, or with either a custom or modified spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 How big a ram are you planning on running? A trailer spring is going to be pretty light duty. I'd go with at least a two ton truck spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Light Hammer Posted August 21, 2015 Author Share Posted August 21, 2015 As currently drawn, the ram will weigh ~90 lbs without a die. The information I've found indicates that a single leaf, 1/4" thick x 2" wide spring is required... as shown here: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 Howdy, My leaf spring is 20 inch centerline eye-eye x 2 inch, with a 2 inch arch from the center of the eyes. 1/4inch thickness is sort of spazmotic. 5/16 would be good, but a lot of spring shops don't work with it. I used 3/8 thick, and am quite happy with it. Have it made by a good spring shop. This part is not a good candidate for re-purposing a rusty junkyard find. If you can't find a spring shop, go to a 4x4 off road custom shop, they will have a contact for you. Feel free to ask questions about your build. These are great hammers. The reason they aren't as popular as they could be, is nobody makes money off the idea... Thanks again, Ron Kinyon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted August 22, 2015 Share Posted August 22, 2015 I know this is a little off topic, but it is related. I've never seen that design of hammer. It looks like an inline treadle hammer with the foot treadle replaced by the air cylinder. Is it intended to be an air operated treadle hammer? Other than the shorter overall height, what advantages are their to this style of air cylinder placement as compared with the cylinder mounted directly above the ram? Thanks for enlightening me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Patrick, search youtube for Kinyon Hammer. John Emmerling has a couple under gearhartironwerks, I made videos when I finished mine, under olenemachine. They are a utility hammer that runs off shop air. I like it because the only parts I can't get at the tractor and feed store, are the 2 magic air boxes from Mcmaster, and I keep spare sets on the shelf. They hit real hard, and have uncanny light feathering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheis Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Hi Mike,I own a decorative metals business and dabble in blacksmithing and I'm finally ready to build my own power hammer. Like most people, I've wanted to build one for about five or six years now, after doing quite a bit of research on the different types of hammer styles I've decided to build the Kinyon style. I've seen your hammer videos and gearharts also and probably hundreds more, yours and gearharts are the cleanest non production hammers I've ever seen! Do you have any advice from your build as a what not to do, or should have done, to make any of it easier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted September 15, 2015 Share Posted September 15, 2015 Rheis, No, I'm actually plumb happy with mine. It's hard to throw out specific advice, as your vertical mill probably has a different capacity than mine, etc. etc. If you go with the two round bars for a head slider, line bore the finished head after it's all welded up, then press in the brass bushings, then, since the machinery is already set up, line bore a clean up cut in the bushings, as they distort as they are pressed in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheis Posted September 16, 2015 Share Posted September 16, 2015 Hey Mike, thanks for the advise. I do plan to use the double round bars for my slides so I'll make sure to line bore every thing after words. Did you turn your own bushings or purchase them? Also can you give me the approximate dimensions of your slide block that the round bars go through and the length of your bushings, that would be much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Rheis, here's the dimensions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheis Posted September 18, 2015 Share Posted September 18, 2015 Hey Mike, WOW thanks! That's going the extra mile! Thanks a gazillion.. that's really going to help. I'm starting the project in the next couple of weeks and hope to have it finished by New Years. I'll send you some pictures when I get it done, but you'll probably hear from me if I run into any issues okay! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 hey guys have a question about this style of hammer the spring dont really do nothing with the ram so close to the head.in which case is it correct to beleive a air ram set op like these dont really need a spring?and what are people thoughts on a plastic bush instead of brass? when i say plastic i mean that uhmc or what ever its called. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheis Posted September 27, 2015 Share Posted September 27, 2015 Hey Andy, I've only started with my hammer build and am a newbie as my status shows, but not a newbie as far as mechanics go. I believe that the spring will act as a whip to a certain degree and should absorb some of the stresses from the hammer impacts. If these stresses aren't absorbed by the whip they will most likely show up somewhere else in the form of stress cracks at the welded joints or bolted connections, but hey that's just my opinion!As far as the brass sleeves vs the UHMW - you might have something there.. I like the idea of the UHMW in place of the brass. I'll be honest, it was the only thing about the build that worried me. The accraloy steel shaft cylinders I'm using are coated for hardness and wear protection but I did notice in some of the gearhartironwerks videos that there might be some form of wear in the slide portions. Maybe Mike can shed some light on this since his hammer is currently operational. It could be that the dark portions of the accraloy slides that I can see in the videos is just residue from the oil impregnated brass sleeves or may be just shadows? It would/will be interesting to hear Mike's opinion on this as he's been through the build process twice already! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Using the square section as the ram on your hammer do you need to machine the faces for the slide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fergy Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 hey guys have a question about this style of hammer the spring dont really do nothing with the ram so close to the head.in which case is it correct to beleive a air ram set op like these dont really need a spring?and what are people thoughts on a plastic bush instead of brass? when i say plastic i mean that uhmc or what ever its called. there is always the other end of the spring in the equation to consider if you mounted it that close to the other end would you consider it to do more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 there is always the other end of the spring in the equation to consider if you mounted it that close to the other end would you consider it to do more? yes it would do more. Im not sure how much more, but I believe you would get the most whip that way. But it would still be putting a lot of strain in one point of the spring,and I'm sure no one wants that much whip. Was just thinking if the ram was in the center it evens out the strain on the spring. And you control the whip by adding leaves ( is that even the right word) to the spring.Dont get me wrong I love the hammer and it does work as is was just wondering if the spring is actually needed? Or if it can be used a little better? Or the engineering improved on? Can't hurt to talk about it at least. :-)Either way looks like a sweet hammer rheis, can't wait to see it working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike-hr Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Here's my take: The first Kinyon hammers had the air cylinder on top, mounted hard to the slide, and upper die. There's a problem with this, as jarring causes metal fatigue, broken welds, etc. Also, having the air cylinder on top made for high ceiling clearance issues. The leaf spring and shackle allow for the air cylinder to be mounted lower. Since the air cylinder is at a slight angle, the spring shackle moves back and forth to convert the diagonal power to a vertical power for the falling weight. I think the 'whip' of the spring is a tertiary concern, but too light of spring won't transfer a good thump. I put a big hydraulic cylinder, with an auxiliary oiler on my hammer, so I don't have much room to move it back and forth to test harmonics. Personally, I don't like UHMW for bushings, as they are viscous, and change dimension with temperature. Once you get bronze bushings dialed in, and oil the slides a couple times a day, they last for years, if not decades.mh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheis Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Hey guys, yea I'm sure you could modify the spring portion in many ways but I'm gonna stick with the single leaf spring for now, it just makes the most sense to me. I'm sure you could move the air rod connection point to anywhere within about the halfway point on the spring to the front, but my guess is that each hammer depending on the material dimensions and pivot connection joints has a sweet spot for the best control of hammer blows from light feathering to heavy blows. I'm also guessing that Mike and the Gearhart fella have them adjusted to the best sweet spot they could find.. I'm looking forward to giving a more definitive answer in the coming months.. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fergy Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 yes it would do more. Im not sure how much more, but I believe you would get the most whip that way. But it would still be putting a lot of strain in one point of the spring,and I'm sure no one wants that much whip. Was just thinking if the ram was in the center it evens out the strain on the spring. And you control the whip by adding leaves ( is that even the right word) to the spring.Dont get me wrong I love the hammer and it does work as is was just wondering if the spring is actually needed? Or if it can be used a little better? Or the engineering improved on? Can't hurt to talk about it at least. :-)Either way looks like a sweet hammer rheis, can't wait to see it working. I aked the question to get you thinking about it. job done Im guessing the spring is there to take the shock out?this will be the style of hammer I build if I ever build one so the more discussion the better IMHO fergy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 I aked the question to get you thinking about it. job done Im guessing the spring is there to take the shock out?this will be the style of hammer I build if I ever build one so the more discussion the better IMHO fergyha ha see that's what I asked the question for in the first place, to encourage people to think about the set up as is at the moment. Every time I think about it I come up with that there is no where for the spring to spring to. Or that all the forces are working against each other. Meaning it (the spring) does basically nothing. Was thinking someone might explain it. But I don't wana hijack the thread anymore then I have already. If I ever build one I might try open more conversation on the topic to see whe the collective minds come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fergy Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Won't the spring deflect and move the small connecting arm at the back out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Probably a little but with the ram at the front what percentage of the force is going into the link to the ram ? I don't know I'm guessing more than 50% plus the bolted on ram bracket is twisting in the other direction to wear the spring wants to flex. Meaning more force in efective in just that small part of the spring.i guess a spring works by spreading the load over the whole thing. If you sit there and look at this set up, how much of the load is spread over the whole spring? Like draw it and estimate how much percentage of load each point on the spring has. Seems to me it is focusing it to just 3" near the head. Dont get me wrong this set up does work, and looks like the hammer does a awesome job. I just think if you look at the engineering of the spring who's job is to reduce the strain on the machine it can be better designed. Still my favourite hammer though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fergy Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Is the function of the spring primarily as a link and secondary as a spring ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andys MQ Posted October 1, 2015 Share Posted October 1, 2015 Is the function of the spring primarily as a link and secondary as a spring ? ?? I hope so because that's what it does more efficiently.thats why I raised the question does an air ram need a spring at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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