faggot welds

[psilogen]

I have made a couple attempts at forging an s-hook with a basket twist in the middle, but I have run into problems. My basic design is 4 rods bundled up and welded at the ends, formed into an S-hook, and twisted around to leave a nice basket in the middle.

I've tried doing all four on the face at once, but the nature of round stock is that it acts like a wedge against other round stock, which is clearly counter-productive, and I got nowhere. I've tried doing two rods at a time, which worked for the first join at one end, but then the other end didn't stick, and if I can only hit that weld right 50% of the time, I am gonna be wasting a lot of stock and time. I got close enough by bundling up all four rods and peening the mass in the v-groove of the swage that I know I can get the next one to completion if I am more careful about heat (the ends started to fray a little, and I burned the heck out of two of the rods in the twist)

I'd like to develop a skillset similar to a serious frontier smith of the 1800s, because that seems like the most hardcore way to go, and it would also give me more than enough basic skills to help me branch off into something more specific or lucrative, and to me this means doing things with as few tools as possible.

Should I: keep trying the weld (in parts or in whole) on the face of the anvil until my dumb head figures out how to do it, or should I accept that one must start somewhere, even if "somewhere" for a frontier smith might be nowhere near a swage block, and take the easy way out?

maybe this is a bit more of a philosophical problem than a smithin' one, but I also don't have a swage block at my home shop, so it is also a practical concern. I guess what I am wondering is: 1., would a professional blacksmith be able to do this on the face of the anvil, with all 4 rods at once, with a minimum of failure, 2. are there any tips you can give me on doing a faggot weld either on the face or in a swage (ideal tong shape, orientation of bundle for welding blows, etc)

[MLMartin]

why dont you forge the ends of the round bar squair so they will sit on each other flatter and not roll off, if you have to forge the weld down into a hook it souldent matter if its squair any way right? how dose that sound

[Leah]

Try this:

Take a piece of stock four times longer than the pieces you have been using. Heat and bend it in the middle into a "U" Make sure the bottom of the "U" is tight together. Then, heat the middle of each "leg" and bend the cut end of each "leg" back on itself to the bottom of the "U" Tighten the bends up so the pieces are as close as can be. This should give you a bundle of four pieces all held together. It is a lot easier to hold onto and weld. Hope this helps.

[psilogen]

dang, Leah. You are the winner.

a million thanks

[Candidquality]

Something else that might help you is to put in one inch of the end stock you are going to attach to the basket. Then you've got the four rounds (possibly squared) with a fifth piece in the center. This gives you a larger mass to weld and that always seems easier to me at least. Combine that with Leah's method above and you've got a simple way to hold the pieces together without a wire wrap.

[Dutchmancreek]

I use Leah's method .... you have one bundle instead of four separate pieces. Just don't use too much force on your initial hammer blows.

If you use the separate pieces, squaring them to begin with is a good idea, as is welding them in a semicircular notch of a swadge block.

Also, when I have had trouble with this type of weld, I knock off any mill scale with a grinder before I start...especially with new stock.

Steve

[BT]

If your anvil is a London pattern with a step at the base of the horn, you should be able to weld all four rods very easily in the step. Wrap them with a wire, or hold them with a pair of bolt tongs that will keep them all contained.

[ThomasPowers]

I do a lot of this weld using the wire frames of election signs for stock---a crop every year after elections and a bumper crop every 4 years after elections. Most folk are happy to have you clean up after the election too and it saves a lot of damage to municiple mowing machines that runacross leftover signs in tall grass.

My general method is to use bailing wire back an inch or so from the end to hold the 4 pieces together. Heat to barely red and flux with borax. I weld on the flat face of the anvil at a good swimming heat: 1 firm tap then rotate 90 and tap that side as well. Then brush, flux again, and reheat and re-weld using stronger hammer blows to weld and start drawing it out for the hook. If you hit it too hard the rods tend to slide off each other instead of sticking.

BTW you do know that a frontier smith would be using real wrought iron as mild steel only became commercially common after the American Civil War, right?

[BT]

I do a lot of this weld using the wire frames of election signs for stock---a crop every year after elections and a bumper crop every 4 years after elections.

Thomas you must have richer politicians in your neck of the woods. The ones around here just use wooden survey stakes with the signs stapled to them. Only the real estate agents can afford the wire framed signs here and they get a bit testy when I help myself to them.

[Jacob]

Another option is to use the final stock size you want and split the basket in the middle. Then you have no welds. Figure out what works best for you and your equipment.

[psilogen]

I do a lot of this weld using the wire frames of election signs for stock---a crop every year after elections and a bumper crop every 4 years after elections. Most folk are happy to have you clean up after the election too and it saves a lot of damage to municiple mowing machines that runacross leftover signs in tall grass.

My general method is to use bailing wire back an inch or so from the end to hold the 4 pieces together. Heat to barely red and flux with borax. I weld on the flat face of the anvil at a good swimming heat: 1 firm tap then rotate 90 and tap that side as well. Then brush, flux again, and reheat and re-weld using stronger hammer blows to weld and start drawing it out for the hook. If you hit it too hard the rods tend to slide off each other instead of sticking.

BTW you do know that a frontier smith would be using real wrought iron as mild steel only became commercially common after the American Civil War, right?

those are good tips, I will try to put them to use

I've only got one chunk of real wrought iron left and it is not going to a lowly s-hook ;)