Oxy Fuel Torch Uses

[Eddie Mullins]

I have gotten the idea in my head that I NEED an Oxy Fuel torch. I have it in mind that I would find it useful for new techniques such as isolated heating or working on larger projects than my small forge crowed smithy can currently handle.  

 

I was hoping I could get some feedback from some of you that incorporate torches into your bag of tricks. What do you find that it gets used for other than as a cutting tool? What options/techniques might a torch open up for me beyond my small coal forge?

 

BTW - we can talk torch specifics if you'd like also. My current thought is to start with an Oxy propane set (for heating and lower initial expense) and latter add acetylene capability as well (for welding).

[Dan C]

I'd also like to add an OA setup in order to spot heat, brazing & cutting, but before I do so I plan on attending a class on how to safely use the equipment.

[DSW]

 Oxy propane is a good choice for heating, especially with large rosebuds. You avoid the 1/7th rule for withdrawl on acetylene that way and don't need as big a cylinder to use a rosebud, Down side to oxy propane is you can't weld with it. You can however solder and braze with oxy propane.

 

 

One good thing is that if you get an oxy propane unit, it's not that hard to convert over to acetylene. The CGA valve fitting for propane is the same one used on some large acetylene cylinders. You do have to watch your fuel gas pressures since acetylene over 15 PSi is unstable and propane regs will deliver more pressure than acetylene regs will. You just need to make sure they are adjusted lower, or better yet, simply buy a 2nd fuel reg for acetylene. Everything else can swap over with the exception of cutting tips and rose buds.

 

A good oxy fuel class can be tough to find. Not many places still teach Oxy fuel welding. They mostly do cutting and solder/brazing. However OA will allow you to do a lot of welding at a reasonable price, including alum.

 

 

 

I'd stick with a good name brand torch and regs. Something your local guy stocks parts for. Victor is probably the most common, but a lot of guys love Harris or Smith gear as well. They can just be a bit harder to source tips and so on in some areas.

[Eddie Mullins]

DSW - Victor is sold locally but I am told the new stuff is not as good as it used to be (no longer made in the US). I have read the Harris torch works better for oxy propane, but don't know that to be fact. The lifetime Smith warranty is tempting also. Hobart is another brand available locally but I don't know much about it.

 

I do plan to just get a dedicated acetylene regulator if and when I and it. Since I'll be starting with an oxy propane rig, I'll have the grade T hose for propane to begin with and I want have to buy/lease an acetylene tank.

 

I have used an oxy actelyene torches in the past, but that was prior to my smithing hobby/obsession and it was for cutting only. I'll definitely have a learning curve.

[Stephen Olivo]

I love my acetylene torch.  They are versatile.  One thing that I would advise is a gas saver stand.  Its something I still need to make.  We are lucky in our guild to have a great man who spent over 40 years oxy acetylene welding rail for the railroad.  He teaches oxy acetylene class for the guild from time to time.  It is awesome to learn all the things possible with it.  Get it and use it.  Took me some time to warm up to it because I didn't know what I could do with it.  Oh and the guild I speak of is http://www.metalsmith.org

cutting, welding, brazing, soldering, casting, concentrated heats, washing down welds,  forging the welds,  the welds can actually look like forge welds or like it wasn't even there.   Just another useful tool especially in a shop without enough electricity.  

 

Safety is important.  As with all tools.

[Eddie Mullins]

Stephen - thanks for the reply. It sounds like you have a great resource in your local guild. I think I am kind of in the same position as you were, I've got some ideas, but just don't know for sure what can be accomplished with the torch. You provided a nice list of possibilities which is what I was hoping for with this thread. I'd like to find out what smiths are using them for and what added benefits or options they bring to the shop.

[Stephen Olivo]

Your welcome.  Yes we do.  One of my old guildys putting one to use.

 

plus having one and air tools is pretty fun.  

There was another video or 2 on youtube that showed the usefulness of air tools and a torch.  I just cant find them right now as google stuff is all linked so when I sign on my wife's account to print some stuff for her it goes to her youtube as well.  Bloody annoying if you ask me. 

[DSW]

I'll have to add a gas saver to my collection. I've seen them used before, but never thought much about using one with my rosebud. Definitely see the usefulness after that video.

[Eddie Mullins]

OK - that video was awesome!

 

BUT - now I need to know how in the heck to make one of those stands!!!

 

I had wondered just how I would manage heating with a rosebud and then needing to put the torch down to work the material, this answers that and reduces fuel consumption, my other concern.

 

SOOOO - who knows how to make one of these??? (I haven't asked the All Knowing Google yet, but will be ASAP LOL)

[DSW]

It's called treadle torch and it uses a gas saver to control the gas flow to the torch. Here's a quick set of plans I located on line for one.

 

http://persimmonforge.blogspot.com/2013/01/treadle-torch-plans.html

[Stephen Olivo]

ABANA has just in the last year put out one in the hammers blow.  This one is from a h. kent hepworth from powell, tennessee. volume 21 #2 spring 2013

 

I like it but plan on modifying it to be more forged and pretty :D  because there is nothing like a pretty functional tool :D

[Stephen Olivo]

Glad I could be helpful :D  

[HWooldridge]

I'm dating myself here but I learned to weld with oxy-acetylene; my now 83 year old cousin was an old-school hot rodder in the 40's and that's all they used for auto work. TIG has replaced it in most applications but I still break out the tips every so often and practice. One thing it does well for smiths is that you can forge weld small stock using OA: upset and scarf as usual, tack in place, flux, take the welding heat and hammer together - works like a charm.

[Eddie Mullins]

DSW - thanks for the link to the plans.

 

HWoolridge - I hope to learn to weld later on. Your post reminded me I have a friend an hour or so away in his 70's that has done a little of everything including race motorcycles years ago. He has, or use to have an oxy acetylene set up he welds with. He was also a weld inspector at one point for a pipe line so he knows a good one. I may just have to go pay him a visit : ) .

[Dan C]

I'm dating myself here but I learned to weld with oxy-acetylene; my now 83 year old cousin was an old-school hot rodder in the 40's and that's all they used for auto work. TIG has replaced it in most applications but I still break out the tips every so often and practice. One thing it does well for smiths is that you can forge weld small stock using OA: upset and scarf as usual, tack in place, flux, take the welding heat and hammer together - works like a charm.

How does tacking with an ARC welder differ?  I've used my arc to do the above, if it's tool steel preheating the metals first.

[EtownAndrew]

My one basic suggestion is that you should buy relatively big tanks. The cost to fill a big size 4 tank is about double the cost to fill a small one but you get 14 times more gas for the money. (Exact figures depend upon what tank sizes are being compared.) I started out with a small portable oxy-acetylene torch/welding kit and I can't get through much more than a small project or two without running out of gas. I have pretty much decided that the next time I run out of gas I'll get a larger tank and stop using the small ones. You probably should buy tanks from a local supplier. Occasionally they are listed on craigslist but when you check into it you learn that they don't have the papers for the tanks and my local gas place will not fill the large tanks if you don't have papers on the tank. Also when you check into it the seller may realize that the tanks were leased and need to be returned to the supplier.

 

I don't know that there is really a cost difference to use propane as compared to acetylene. Both have other advantages and disadvantages than cost that might be a deciding factor. I did a study a year or so ago based on published Victor and Smith gas consumption rates for cutting 1/4" plate. Acetylene cutting ranged from $9.89/hour to $10.87/hour. Propane ranged from $9.80/hour to $15.79/hour. Propane requires a lot more oxygen which offset the lower cost of Propane. The published data typically gave a range of gas usage and so if I picked the middle or bottom of the range for my evaluation then someone else would get different results depending upon the figures they used.

 

Used Oxy-acetylene torch kits are readily available on craigslist. I don't see a propane set as often and you might need to buy it new from a supplier.

[Eddie Mullins]

andrew - more good info. I have tried to find consumption rates, I must not be looking hard enough. I actually found a propane set up with the tank, but discivered just what you are warning of, the LWS will not refill the tank without a recipet and the seller didn't have one. The other thing I have ran into is that no one locally will sell a tank larger than an 80 CFU, they only lease the larger ones. Its over $250 for a 5 yr lease. Part of the savings upfront for me will be that I want have to buy/lease the acetylene tank, and from what I understand, using a rosebud for heating requires a large acetylene tank where as my 20lb propane bottles will do the job.

[DSW]

Here's a tip chart that shows gas volume useage. I used to have a better one, but the site it's at isn't up any longer. Note that propane tips are listed below the acetylene chart for #10 and up.

 

http://dennisalbert.com/Welding/WeldingTipGuide.htm

 

If you look at a #5 rosebud ( for acetylene), it calls for 6 to 20 cubic feet per hour. My medium sized 75 cf acet, using the 1/7th rule for withdrawl, will operate at the lower end of that range. A #6 tip with a lower flow rate of 14 CFH is over the limit. Same goes with cutting tips. They do sell manifolds that will allow you to gang multiple cylinders together, but then you have to add the cost of the extra cylinder plus the manifold to your equation.

 

Propane does away with that issue. Also because propane is stored as a liquid, you get more "gas" per volume. If I remember right a 20 lb propane cylinder will equate out to roughly 170 cf of gas ( propane weighs 4.22 lb per gallon and you get 35.65 cf of gas per gallon of propane) One down side to propane in cold weather is that you have a pressure drop when temps get cold.

 

 

I've never had issues getting propane filled with the exception that some places will want all propane cylinders to have the newer OPV valves on them to fill them. Since propane cylinders for welding and heating are exempt from this restriction, that's not a problem as long as the guys at the fill station actually know the regs. I take mine to two places who don't hassle me about this. The fact I bring in 5 or 6 cylinders at a time and bring the work truck, probably doesn't hurt either.

 

My supplier will sell me any cylinder up to roughly 150 cf no problem. Anything bigger are rental/lease cylinders. However because I have an account with them, I've never had any issues swapping one of their cylinders for another one, even though I don't have any leased cylinders on my account. If I have one of their cylinders to swap and get the same gas, same size, no one asks any questions. On occasion I'll borrow larger cylinders from a friend of mine who has a lease, and when I'm done, I usually swap them out and return his cylinders full. My guy will also spot me "temporary" cylinders over a weekend for example. If I know I'm going to use a lot of gas, he'll give me a "spare" full cylinder as long as I bring it back 1st thing on Monday morning. One of the advantages of getting to know the guys behind the counter and having a place who is willing to work with you.

 

 

Smaller independent suppliers are often more lenient on things like this than the bigger chain places. Unfortunately near me the majority of the independent guys have closed or were bought up by the big guys.

[ThomasPowers]

I had a big cutting job once, cutting apart the mangled sheets of wrought iron from the old Ohio pennitentiary water tower---I believe it was Byers bi directional rolled plate, my local dealer would spot me tanks too.  I had to have a deposit put on my credit card but in the end he just charged me for the gas used.  A *BIG* help when you needed big tanks over a bunch of weekends.

[Mike Romo]

Great info here. Just posting to remind me of it.

[HWooldridge]

How does tacking with an ARC welder differ?  I've used my arc to do the above, if it's tool steel preheating the metals first.

I was referring to forge welding with the torch as the heat source.  Works well on small stock - 3/16 to 1/4 or so.

[EtownAndrew]

In my area Tractor Supply sells a #4 acetylene tank that holds 145 cubic feet for $350. That is the largest they sell. However, I have also noticed that their price is a little higher than buying direct from a gas supplier. You will probably be happy with propane but if you are still interested in getting larger acetylene tanks you may want to call a couple of your local suppliers to check on their lease vs. buy policy. I have one that wants to lease them and I think another said that I could buy them.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/store/acetylene-gas-cylinder-4-size-145-cu-ft

[Ten Hammers]

Fusion welding with the torch is indeed something that all welders should be taught.  The gas saver is next in importance to me.  Yes, the MIG, stick and plasma are important as are the other tools.  The torch ( Smith regs, Dillon torch, Smith gas saver in the shop, Victor regs,Smith torch in the trailer) still makes the difference many times.  I have LP for forges but don't waste my time with it hand held other than a weed burner or 2 ( air LP ) for given uses.  Welded (or tacked) with the mig, the weld then heated to welding temp and forged makes very nice strong components.  Just got to learn how hot and how long to hammer, when to stop..

 

YES you should be trained on bottles and regulators.  Buy good equipment or stay on the porch.  One of these days Alice, bang, to the moon.

[bikecopXXX]

+1 on oxy- propane
Last week i finally got my smith medium duty oxy propane system, with tanks, cart AND gas saver...got it put together and leak checked (watched the smithequipmenttv and prorancher videos ~10 times) last weekend. Today was my first use for heating. I used the cutting torch since I was making small stuff...
Compared to my gas forge (homemade blown brickstack), it heats much faster and get to sparklers temp easily. It does spot heating way better than the forge of course. It also doesn't continuously blow huge quantities of super hot air, so i can pull the whole works into the garage and not melt my garage door insulation. And the gas saver is fantastic! Saves time and fuel. I rigged up a fat wire hook to hang it better on the gas saver arm.
I made a garyhuston mini cross, a bodkin point, a nail-cross (also my first try at forge welding...fail) in an hour or so and hardly used any gas. Propane is cheap and a 150cf oxy fill is only $12.

Small experience base so far, but it is looking like a good move! I have a small plate cutting job planned, expecting joy.

[Stephen Olivo]

Sounds like your having fun with your new "toys".   A good project to practice forge welding on is a key chain tomahawk fob.  small bar folded back on itself cold welding heat taken.  Weld and spread blade.  Put in little nick between blade and eye using rounded corner of anvil and then using hot cut cut from parent bar then fold parent bar back on itself to start the next one.  They take only one heat and the nick will show you if you welded it or not.  Great practice because it is quick small and simple the bar is only like 1/4 x 1/8 or so so no time really taken to get it up to welding.