johnnie Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 I have recently got my power hammer running and am having a on going problem forging. Every time I do a taper the piece seems to be twisting. I have checked the dies and they both seem to be true to level but each time the hammer hits the steel I can feel the steel twisting in my hands or tongs. I know to correct this is to hit the highest point and square things out but where am I going wrong in the first place???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postleg Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 I would have to think that the dies are not hitting square. The solution to that depends on what type power hammer you have. Since the guides for head alignment are different for different styles of hammers. I think more info will be required to answer you question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Sometimes when drawing on the far side of the dies, (or by pulling the project) after turning 90 degrees the bar will want to twist so that you will be forging the narrow rather than the wide side of the bar. With flat dies drawing by pushing or on the near side of the dies will often correct this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted October 27, 2013 Share Posted October 27, 2013 Greetings John, Just a thought.... Try forging a square taper keeping your stock even with the dies .. Forge one side than take a heat before turning 90.. This will give us more information as to your problem... Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted October 28, 2013 Share Posted October 28, 2013 Some things to check- Are your dies exactly the same shape? Check with a template. Are they perfectly aligned? Check with a straight edge. Is the tup slightly loose in the guides? Grab it and see if you can wiggle it at all. And the most likely, are you feeding the stock into the hammer perfectly horizontally? If you are a little high or low the dies will curve your stock when hot and jar your arms up and down when it's cold. Have someone watch you (from a safe distance) with their eyes at die level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnie Posted October 29, 2013 Author Share Posted October 29, 2013 I would have to think that the dies are not hitting square. The solution to that depends on what type power hammer you have. Since the guides for head alignment are different for different styles of hammers. I think more info will be required to answer you question. Hi the hammer is a 1915 Beaudry's Peerless. Enough said??? Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnie Posted October 29, 2013 Author Share Posted October 29, 2013 Some things to check- Are your dies exactly the same shape? Check with a template. Are they perfectly aligned? Check with a straight edge. Is the tup slightly loose in the guides? Grab it and see if you can wiggle it at all. And the most likely, are you feeding the stock into the hammer perfectly horizontally? If you are a little high or low the dies will curve your stock when hot and jar your arms up and down when it's cold. Have someone watch you (from a safe distance) with their eyes at die level. All seems to be good Jud, I think it maybe me. Its my first proper hammer so practice practice practice I guess. Thanks for the advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnie Posted October 29, 2013 Author Share Posted October 29, 2013 Thank you all for your time and advice, this is my first big hammer and the fault is more than likely me. @ Jim I shall try what you suggested and return the conclusion. Thanks again guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 In looking at the photos of your hammer and the die configuration, I would check that the dies meet parallel at the working hight. Also, are you working with the hit-turn method? Or do you work down one side then flip 90 and work down the other side? You might try using a piece of cold square stock and practice just turning the stock on the face of the dies. After you get a feel for that move start hitting the cold steel lightly with the hammer while turning. This will help you see were you might be going wrong. The steel, being cold will correct whatever you are doing because the dies will move the cold steel in your hands. Like I said, hit it lightly because you can really hurt yourself if you give a full hit with the steel out of alignment. After you get a feel for that, start working the steel hot. It will tell you everything you need to know about what you are doing while forging. The steel should come out straight and square if all is going right. One other thing, if you are forging one side then flipping 90 degrees, don't over forge the one side. I shoot for reducing the mass by 1/4 to 1/3 at most before flipping to the other side. When turning, I find it best to turn always in the same direction rather than back and forth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnie Posted October 29, 2013 Author Share Posted October 29, 2013 Fe-Wood may I firstly thank you for yor time to answer my problem with such an in depth answer. I feel a tad dubious about using the hammer on cold steel. The belt seems to grab and propels the ram at full clout when least expected. Eg, foot pushes pedle, more, more, more........bang its off at full pelt and its only then you have a chance to raise your foot and minimise the blow and speed of the blows. Being made almost one hundred years ago I am not sure if it's me or the old girl. After the initial"rush" control is easy to maintain, personally I think she takes a lot to get going but when she is its plain sailing. I will try some steel at maybe just red hot and go from there. Again thank you for you time and advise, John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 My Pleaser John! I have an old Bradley that runs like that until its warmed up. Get it going to the point were the dies are just touching and not pounding each other. Good practice in itself and means the hammer is functioning properly. You may want to use a bit of wood between the dies to start off with. Then back off a bit and put the steel in between the dies while the hammer is still moving. Please, don't do anything you are not comfortable with! These old girls are awesome hammers but take a bit of getting used too. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 John, Do the Peerless have a factory brake on the big pulley like the Beaudry Champions do? If so play with the tightness of the break. If it's just a slack belt/idler pulley combo try changing the tension on the belt when loose and perhaps dress the belt with a grippy substance, there are commercial belt dressings available here in the USA but I've heard that a few drops of honey on a flat belt will do the same thing. Do you have the motor spinning the belt in the right direction? Check out post #44 and #45 in this thread '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> Make sure the slides and shafts are absolutely DRIPPING with lube, oil, ATF, etc. I've never run a Beaudry with a factory clutch, but the Little Giants with clutches that I've owned liked to have a few drops of oil on the wood clutch friction surfaces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Greetings again John, After looking at your posted pictures I see that the first on has a drawing die that is not centered... It seems you changed the lower die to a combo die and left the top drawing die in place... Did you get a matched pair of dies? They appear to be too small for the receiver ... Also I would not add any anti slip to your belt.. The control of your hammer depends on slippage of the belt... I hope this helps Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 IIRC, the Peerless uses a metal clutch assembly and it does require some lubrication to function smoothly. I've only seen one running and that was about 25 years ago but I seem to remember the owner squirting a few drops of oil inside the clutch (and the brake does need to be adjusted properly). I have a Beaudry Champion and have worked on several mechanical hammers over the years; I set the clutch or idler, depending on model, to start grabbing when the brake starts releasing. When done properly, you can get one hard lick out of the ram with a short step on the treadle. It's also easy to over-rotate the work and what initially looks square will start to go diamond in a few hits. I usually keep knocking the corners back as I forge so the diamond cross section doesn't get exaggerated. Part of the problem is not so much with the dies being out of square to each other but with the material sliding to one side when it's struck. Try a quick quarter turn with every stroke of the hammer (yes, you can do it with practice, even at 250-300 bpm) and observe how fast the material moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnie Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 John, Do the Peerless have a factory brake on the big pulley like the Beaudry Champions do? If so play with the tightness of the break. If it's just a slack belt/idler pulley combo try changing the tension on the belt when loose and perhaps dress the belt with a grippy substance, there are commercial belt dressings available here in the USA but I've heard that a few drops of honey on a flat belt will do the same thing. Do you have the motor spinning the belt in the right direction? Check out post #44 and #45 in this thread '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> Make sure the slides and shafts are absolutely DRIPPING with lube, oil, ATF, etc. I've never run a Beaudry with a factory clutch, but the Little Giants with clutches that I've owned liked to have a few drops of oil on the wood clutch friction surfaces. Hi Jud, yes there is a belt brake on the big pulley and that could well be the problem, one I haven't thought of. The canvas belt does have some sort of rubber coating on it that kind of sits within the canvas (does that make any sense?). Thanks for your ideas, I will have a good look at the brake operation today..........thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnie Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 Greetings again John, After looking at your posted pictures I see that the first on has a drawing die that is not centered... It seems you changed the lower die to a combo die and left the top drawing die in place... Did you get a matched pair of dies? They appear to be too small for the receiver ... Also I would not add any anti slip to your belt.. The control of your hammer depends on slippage of the belt... I hope this helps Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Hello again Jim. The combo die you have seen is one I made. I just slapped it on the hammer for the photo. The drawing top die is all the hammer came with along with the a flat 5"x3" bottom die, which do seem to line up together and work well. Because of the depth of the top die (from reciver to stiking face) I feel dubious if I should make another. I can only weld the dove tail using mild mig wire. I have done this on the new bottom die which I will check for cracking but am a tad concerned of a serious accident if the top die breaks free during use and whilst I am not watching it. What do you think?? Thanks for your help/coments and thoughts so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew T Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 From the photo it looks like a wider belt will fit. It seems to me a full width belt would be best. I use leather on my Bradley, works great. I also think you should put full width centered matching dies on it. Do you have away to drill and tap for a bolt on dovetail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnie Posted October 31, 2013 Author Share Posted October 31, 2013 From the photo it looks like a wider belt will fit. It seems to me a full width belt would be best. I use leather on my Bradley, works great. I also think you should put full width centered matching dies on it. Do you have away to drill and tap for a bolt on dovetail? Andrew yor right about the belt and hope to get a new one this weekend. Also a full widthdie shouldn't be a problem as I have the fork tines to use. I am guessing forging on a full width would be a lot easier for me as I calss myself as a beginner on the hammer. I do have a large pillar drill so tapping and bolting is certainty an option just need to source a tap and I am away. Thanks for you ideas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sal the blacksmith Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 If you've checked your blocks & they're coming down flat then I'd have to say check for slack or wear in your tup as its probably sending the job slightly ascew as the job is squeezed between the blocks. You might need to get a precision engineer involved with this one - install a sleeve in the cylinder - sounds expensive but a necessary overhaul if you want to spend less time correcting forgings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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