Spruce Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 So, I've built myself a little forge - a kind of box design which opens on three sides if I want it to, kind of like a diamondback. I made 2 of Frosty's T burners to heat it up, and fired it up today. My last forge was a round air tank one, and had to Zoeller side arm burners - the kind with the ward reducing T. It was loud - really roared and spat out a lot of hot air. I tried choking it some, but it seemed like it didn't heat as well. Did produce quite a lot of scale. Now, my new forge, is much quitter, and doesn't force as much hot air out. But, overall there is more flame coming out the doors - it just doesn't roar out like my old forge. Instead it curls up pretty quickly. So it's like there is more flame, but doesn't shoot out so far. I'm thinking that I need a balance between the two. Here's a link to some photos (imgur is not giving me the image codes - I think it wants me to upgrade my account...) http://imgur.com/a/Irhz3 Lemme know what you guys think. In the images you can sorta see the pale yellow flames leaping upwards from the doors. They go up about a foot. This is what I'm wondering about. Overall it does get hotter than my last forge - I haven't lined it with plistix or anything yet, but I can get up to a bright orange or dull yellow heat. I think I might need a little more oxygen though, which I think means I will need to take the burners apart, and cut the mig tips shorter - is this correct? Mucho thanks, Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Spruce, IMHO, here is what I see wrong with your forge at this point. it is not coated ,you have it lined yet you are burning the lining up , you have two burners in it and it is a small unit and they seem /look like they are not adjusted correctly (the flame is very orange to indicate they are very rich /burning at a blue flame is desired . Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Not sure about this but it appears to me that your flame may be a trace lean. Temp in any forge depends on btu in vers btu out. Open on three sides means that you are kicking out gas as fast as it goes in. Try adding temporary insulating brick on the sides and see what you get in terms of temp. Even an excellent design like the one you are using can need minor adjustments to find the sweet spot. Good Luck Charlotte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted May 31, 2013 Author Share Posted May 31, 2013 Thanks for the info, Samcro - I think you're right about it being rich. The question is how to fix it. I am switching from a 1" downtube, to a 3/4" downtube, with a flare on the end. And, I think my mig tips need to be shorter. Hopefully I can get it to run with too much air, and adjust it via a choke. As for it being unlined, the materials are on their way. But, right now it's not hurting that lining much, if at all. After running it for 20 mins yesterday, I can't even tell it was on. In any case, it will be lined soon. But, lined or not, I want those burners running perfectly. Charlotte - It was only open for that one picture. Most of the time it's just got a hole on either end. I'll only open it up when I have to, and I'll crank the hell out of the propane when I do, to get it hot enough, and close it up as soon as I can fit the piece in again/start on something smaller. Hopefully my latest round of mods will help, Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Hey spruce: It shouldn't be quieter, gas burners tend to roar painfully loudly. The flame looks well formed so alignment is good. A LITTLE bit of orange dragon's breath is a good thing but it shouldn't have a lot. Yellow on the other hand is WAY lean and not only not efficient it's pumping out obscene amounts of CO. I can't see how the mig tips are mounted but pulling it back a little will lean it up and maybe get your heat. Before you do any adjusting on the burners though, how large a volume are you heating? If it's as small as it looks back pressure will be a factor reducing induction and efficiency and making it run rich. With the burners aimed straight down and the lip in front of the doors, flame will blow back at the burners so it could be developing considerable back pressure even with it wide open. My forge has one burner per 350 cu/in as a general rule of thumb. It's configurable, I can change it's interior shape by moving sidewall bricks. however, I bring this up because in one section approx 350cu/in+ there's a spot under the burner about 2.5" dia. that gets all gooey in use. It's not flux damage or it'd have burned through the floor long ago. It's the 3,000f ITC-100 hard split fire brick melting. Loud? With one burner running you can hear it from the house 125' away or the barn 200' away. Guys driving in know I'm forging because they can hear it coming up the driveway. Lastly, here's a little test you can do to see if a little more air is what you need. Take a hair drier and while the burner's running try giving the air intake a little extra push from the blow drier. If it goes from dull roar to shrieking howl there's the answer, it's running too lean. No, you don't need the blow drier as a fix, it's just a test tool. We'll get it tuned with a little tweaking. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 Hey spruce: It shouldn't be quieter, gas burners tend to roar painfully loudly. The flame looks well formed so alignment is good. A LITTLE bit of orange dragon's breath is a good thing but it shouldn't have a lot. Yellow on the other hand is WAY lean and not only not efficient it's pumping out obscene amounts of CO. I can't see how the mig tips are mounted but pulling it back a little will lean it up and maybe get your heat. Before you do any adjusting on the burners though, how large a volume are you heating? If it's as small as it looks back pressure will be a factor reducing induction and efficiency and making it run rich. With the burners aimed straight down and the lip in front of the doors, flame will blow back at the burners so it could be developing considerable back pressure even with it wide open. My forge has one burner per 350 cu/in as a general rule of thumb. It's configurable, I can change it's interior shape by moving sidewall bricks. however, I bring this up because in one section approx 350cu/in+ there's a spot under the burner about 2.5" dia. that gets all gooey in use. It's not flux damage or it'd have burned through the floor long ago. It's the 3,000f ITC-100 hard split fire brick melting. Loud? With one burner running you can hear it from the house 125' away or the barn 200' away. Guys driving in know I'm forging because they can hear it coming up the driveway. Lastly, here's a little test you can do to see if a little more air is what you need. Take a hair drier and while the burner's running try giving the air intake a little extra push from the blow drier. If it goes from dull roar to shrieking howl there's the answer, it's running too lean. No, you don't need the blow drier as a fix, it's just a test tool. We'll get it tuned with a little tweaking. Frosty The Lucky. Doesn't yellow indicate a low oxygen or high fuel condition? My understanding of air fuel mixture calls this a fuel RICH atmosphere and low fuel or excess oxygen (or air) would be a LEAN atmosphere and produce a blueish white flame (and shriek and howl) :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 1, 2013 Share Posted June 1, 2013 Yes Dodge, I meant to say rich, not lean. I only read that I don't know how many times and had it back in an edit window five times I know for sure and missed such an obvious mistake every single time. <sigh> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Been there; done that ^_^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted June 2, 2013 Share Posted June 2, 2013 I thought I had it wrong ,However I am glad to see I did not say it wrong as I do have issues of doing that some times ,more then I like too. Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted June 3, 2013 Share Posted June 3, 2013 We all get things wrong, sometimes things we think obvious. It's good to have backup. Thanks Dodge, I could've sent someone off in exactly the opposite direction. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 Alright folks, here's the latest: It was indeed burning rich. Its only a little bigger than 350 cubic inches - 450ish from memory but I need to go measure again to get it exactly right. So, I opted for 2 burners - hopefully backpressure won't screw me up too much, but I was hoping I could keep 2 burners running on low PSI instead of having to really blast 1 burner for most forging work. I got 1" x 1" x 3/4" Ts, reduced the jet down to a .035 mig tip, and drilled and tapped 1/8" schedule 80 nipples to hold the tip, which allowed me to cut the tip back to about a half inch. Before with the lamp rod setup the caps which I drilled and tapped for the MIG tip were so big that I was afraid I wouldn't be able to cut the tip back enough. I like this setup much better - it just looks cleaner. I thought about drilling and tapping a 1/4 compression to 1/8 MIP fitting, the way I've read several others are doing it, but I wanted to go from the 1/8 MIP section, directly into my 1/8 FIP threaded ball valve, and not have compression fittings in between, just out of a preference thing - it puts the valves where I want them. So, this seems to have worked great. I don't have photos yet, but I have way less dragons breath, and they are louder again. I can get the flame lean, and I put a little choke plate on each opening of the Ts so I can cut down the air however I want. And, I can now idle it down way way lower, which will help with my propane consumption. And, my castable refractory came in today, so I'm going to trowel that in tomorrow, and cast in 1:12 burner flares. Then, after my IR coating comes in (trying the metrikote stuff from Wayne Coe), I'll put that on, and I should really be cooking. It already got hotter than my previous efforts. So far, I'm way impressed with the setup. One more question I have though - I used 8" x 3/4" down tubes - Frosty - I read in another post of yours, that you recommended between 6" and 7" for a 3/4" burner. Is this right? What will be the effect if I drop to 6" down tubes? I have two, so I might try it tomorrow just to see. Anyway, thanks mucho - I'll post some photos tomorrow (or the next day or so, depending on when I put in the refractory cement) to see if you guys can spot anything else which needs tweaking. Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Wolf Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 Frosty or too anyone that is running this T burner , I stumbled on to a Video of this burner on you tube and it sparked my interest , I have a small two burner majestic propane forge . will this T burner with the 0.35 mig tip be able to allow me to forge weld with gas at a lower Psi instead of the 15 to 18 Psi have to use now .. any help on this matter would be appreciated I would like to see this burner in action any one got a link ,, thank you .. When we as Americans give up our Rights for security we deserve neither Rights nor SECURITY . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Post the Youtube link and I'll have a look.Don't get stuck thinking there is a right psi to run burners. How much pressure it needs is a function of the size of the jet, size of the intake ports, length of the burner tube, flare if any, but mostly how precisely you built the thing. Those are just the beginning factors, I didn't get into any of the ones you tune by.Most of my burners run in the 6-15 psi operating range. One doesn't like much less than 8 but melts fire brick at 15. Trying to compare a burner you built with one someone else built with things like a specific operating pressure is counter productive.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastRonin Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Frosty, I believe he meant he stumbled onto a YouTube video of a t-burner and is wondering if it would work better in his majestic forge than the burners majestic forge sells them with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Wolf Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 yes what I meant to say i was fumbling threw the videos on your tube when i seen this video on your T Burner Frosty and it sparked my interest , LastRonin that is exactly what i am asking you did it better than i did thank you for the translation , and if it would also work well by plugin off one end of the T and setting up a tube for a blower making it air forced here is the You Tube Video .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuqSe7KqA1s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastRonin Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Don't try to modify a naturally aspirated burner into a forced air, it will just cause headaches. If you decide you want to go the forced air route, buy or build a burner designed that way. Edited August 20, 2015 by LastRonin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 21, 2015 Share Posted August 21, 2015 That's pretty cool, a Youtube video done by someone who knows what he's doing. If I use my lathe 10 minutes is about right.If you want to use a gun burner just make a gun burner. Adding a blower to a naturally aspirated burner is just adding a completely unnecessary level of complexity for no gain.I don't know what size burner will work in your forge. What's it's volume? Is it insulated? how large is/are the door(s)?Again, tune your burner and use it, forget what psi someone else claims their burner runs on. It doesn't mean anything to anybody but them.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elvirth Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 yes what I meant to say i was fumbling threw the videos on your tube when i seen this video on your T Burner Frosty and it sparked my interest , LastRonin that is exactly what i am asking you did it better than i did thank you for the translation , and if it would also work well by plugin off one end of the T and setting up a tube for a blower making it air forcedhere is the You Tube Video .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuqSe7KqA1sThis might be a little OCD but the orifice in his "best" burner is noticeably off-center... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 This might be a little OCD but the orifice in his "best" burner is noticeably off-center...One of us is the victim of an optical illusion I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 30, 2015 Share Posted August 30, 2015 He's holding it turned slightly so you're not looking straight through the air ports. If the jet weren't aligned straight down the tube it wouldn't burn so nicely.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Would someone be kind enough to clarify what type propane regulator is being used? Anything out of the ordinary? Some information regarding an appropriate gauge to monitor pressure would help also. I don't want to make assumptions and end up doing something stupid because of it. I'd rather ask and look stupid than not ask and be stupid :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 This is a quick Yahoo search result NOT an add or suggestion for a specific product or company. The reg on the far right or one very like it are available on the Shelf at the local Wasilla Petrolane front office/show room. If they're too far to drive and ask, give them a call. You're looking for an "Adjustable high pressure regulator with a range of 0-30 psi." The ones on the shelf here are $26.000 + tax. Shipping included. Propane rated hose is a MUST and is the single most expensive part of the whole build believe it or nothttp://www.propane101.com/highpressureregulators.htm#AdjustableRegulatorFrosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozzy Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Thanks, Frosty. Clears it up nicely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 Thanks, Frosty. Clears it up nicelyYou're welcome. Glad to be of help.Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theintegrator Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Me too. Little late but solves my problem. Thanks frosty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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