Thanks for the feed back around ,my question about hammer dies .

I appreciate this forum more and more .I have been dealing with a neck problem so a little slow to respond . 

I wondered if I were to use 4140 for a shop made die ,can I use it un hardened ?

I just had a hammer tool brake on me that was not hardened ,and got to thinking about 

metal flying ,ouch .Or are there other steels that are good for such purposes that will

hold up ? Thanks 

Good Morning,

 

4140 would make good die material. In an ideal world it would be best to have the die professional heat treated, to what I don't know. There are quite a few who make the hammer dies from Mild Steel (works well, just doesn't last 100 years). I make my dies from off-cuts of 2.5" T-1 plate, which I get from the shop that makes excavator buckets. I haven't heat treated my dies and have used them for over 15 years, with a little wear but I can touch them up with a grinder/sander or a mill.

 

4140 is good material for top tools. Grant used mild steel handles welded to the 4140. I prefer not to have top tools hardened, I weld when both pieces are hot and air cool. I don't like hardened top tools, I would rather repair one than lose an eye with a bullet projectile.

 

another $.02

 

Neil

Neil, I have some T3 drops from a gravel processing machine manufacturer and I have been unable to cut this with anything I own, abrasive cut off & power hacksaw. How did you machine the T1?

I made my power hammer dies out of 4140 and heat treated them myself.  I heated to non-magnetic, quenched in commercial quench oil from McMaster Carr (the slower of the two they carry), and tempered at 600 degrees.  They've been going for several years without problem, with a 100 lb. ram.  I also pre-heated to 400 and post-heated after heat treatment when I welded them to their baseplates.

 

Just be sure and give them plenty of cooldown time after hardening.  I had a combination die crack on me when I moved it from the oil, where it had been sitting at least five minutes, into water to cool it the rest of the way.  No need to get in a hurry.

Back in the late 70's I made a set of dies for my newly acquired 25lb. Little Giant. Made them out of a follower block from a boxcar which is 1045. I ran tons of 1/2" square through those dies.  I'd say they held up pretty good. They are still in the 25....

 

 

 

 

 

4140 is almost made to order for hammer dies, it's made to NOT work harden to embrittlement and is used in big gun breaches and other places where embrittlement is a BAD thing. Loader bucket hinges for one.

 

I don't know if hardening is necessary but if you do, remember you're working with relatively thick material so it will take time to chill to the center. Tempering will take soak time as well so be patient!

 

Steels made for dirt movers is not only shock resistant it's abrasion resistant so it'll have something saws really HATE like carbide in the alloy. Carbide isn't alloyed as it isn't cast anything like under reasonable conditions, it's held as granules in a steel matrix. Regardless saws die quickly as do most grinding disks, stones and wheels. A blue stone will work if you want to spend the money for diamond.

 

The best I've seen for grinding has been done at red heat and hot filing works but eats files, heat doesn't affect the carbide granules and the file teeth have to literally rip it out of the steel matrix. The matrix isn't sissy steel either, it's tough enough to stop 70,000lbs. of rolling stock from 30mph. break bone quick.

 

Of course you can always find harder steels to work; say grader edge or skid shoes, they're typically something like 150+pts. of carbon and carry lots more carbide.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

Most of my dies are 4140, I tried to use them without heat treating it did not work out that well. Now I heat treat as a normal plan, if they are too hard they just need a higher tempering temp. to be safe. If using unheat treated 5160 for tooling under the hammer it will likely be harder than unheat treated 4140 just a thought.