Suggestions for needlemakers anvil

[Stefflus]

I have plans to make sewing needles from larger stock (bloomery steel, crucible steel) along the way, so wire stock is not the route I want to go in practicing.

 

But I remember someone trying to make needles from 1/4" stock on an ordinary anvil last year, and they got maybe one hit before the anvil sucked the heat from it.

So I'm thinking maybe a preheated piece of HSS for anvil, if so, what is the largest piece I can hope for, large drill bits? Or could there be some rock that can go red and still not crack?

Other suggestions?

[Wayne]

Do you mean sewing needles or knitting needles?

 

WayneIn the middle ages they were made from drawn wire with either punched or split heads and the tips sharpened by a file with the needle being held on a piece of bone.

[rlbaker]

Drawing your wire down to finished size will give you the exact size you need and work harden it at the same time if needed. All you need is carbide insert drawplate, drawtongs,6x6 with a couple of big lags at one end to retain drawplate while pulling, windlass with larger piece of pipe for drum with stud welded on it to catch windlass rope and 2ft or whatever pipe handles to rotate drum and pull wire, drum is mounted on 6x6 between two vert legs of same material, use appropriate size rope, weld bigger hooks on drawtongs for rope to loop around, anneal tip of wire so no breaking on initial pull,file/grind point on tip, use good lube, start drawing wire,when tongs are at drum open tongs,release tongs reset tongs near drawplate and  repeat  till you have 8ft or 80ft. Depending on dia of starting wire ,number of passes etc may have to anneal , just have to sequence it so you end up with particular degree of hardness you want for finished product. Remember if you do need to anneal it (you will always anneal tip) make your coil loops touching each other tight and tie with binding wire so you t end up with unfiorm softness throughout s an. Rope is stretchy on startup so acts as shock absorber so you break fewer tips.Don't skip holes, you will just snap off tips or won't be able to pull wire. All this is based on my experience with softer wire, but same principle as steel you just mught have to finesse it more. Also  you  cant swap ends because the grain is going one direction once you start the process so when you snap tips make sure you repoint same end of wire. Good luck.

[Stefflus]

Wayne: sewing needles

rlbaker: Yes I've done this with silver, but how common was drawing wire in the iron ages?

-Did they use it for chainmaille?

-And I was under the impression that the stock for drawing should be quite perfect to begin with, how would they have done this in the iron age when the raw material was a bloom billet?

To be honest if I could find a anvilstone that would tolerate red heat I would probably go that way, or another semi-"authentic" route. So carbide insert drawplate is out of the question (although we have some at school). If drawing was used for iron in those days, I shall have to make a steel one.

[Wayne]

Stefflus

Drawing iron was common in the middle ages, there was a draw plate found in the Matermyr chest as well if I remember.

 I have a few references I will dig out.

Which period are you actually looking at?

I know that regarding iron and steel in the 15th century one of the best sources of information are the petty customs accounts for ports such as London,Southampton and Hull.

The accounts are basically medieval tax forms where every thing bought in on a ship is listed and priced so you end up with a complete inventory

of a ships cargo.

In these are a lot of references to iron and steel being imported from Scandinavia and from the Low Countries/Germany.

They refer not only to billets but also to bar,rod and plate.

Other items listed are tools ,weapons etc. Pins and needles are often mention at so many thousand gross at a time - there are even ships coming in just laden with oranges thousands at a time?

 

Wayne

[Stefflus]

Which period are you actually looking at?

Preferably iron age, but to my knowledge viking needles were on the large side, and they still used alot of bone/antler/horn needles.

I could say pre black death, or even pre industrialism, the point is rather how the local farmer would have gone about making the needles he needed, or even how the village smith would do it here in isolated Norway. If that broad timeframe also incorporates drawing done by such uneducated smiths, then I would love to know more about it.

 

But this topic is posted in anvils, and since it is of interest for forging even cruder needles such as those on brooches, and maybe even small nails, I will keep this last bit on topic:

-How about cast iron, say, a cannonball? Could that be used as a hot anvil?

[caotropheus]

I am a newbie in blacksmithing and I may be saying a lot of non-sense, but to draw needles, couldn't you just improvise a stake anvil, made out of mild steel rod. You can pre-heat it  with a torch, work on it and if the surface gets irregular, repair it. It is very inexpensive. You can also use a hammer head standing or even a pickaxe mounted on a solid piece of pipe.

 

Look at this example of a very simple anvil to forge nails

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQMkWHrt-i0

[Dan P.]

I think a small tinsmith's or silversmith's anvil would be most suitable.

I think a large amount of cold working is going to be inevitable, too.

I would also add that I think you are going to have a lot of misery trying to use a draw plate on bloom/wrought. Given the time frame you are looking at, needles would probably be fairly large by modern standards, certainly the ones made of iron/steel, probably no smaller than 1mm diameter, which is not that hard to forge by hand (no drawplate).

You might also be interested in this book;

http://www.shirebooks.co.uk/store/Needlemaking_9780852635636

 

Lastly, please share your results, it sounds like an interesting project!

[ThomasPowers]

Drawing of NONFERROUS wire  predate drawing of real wrought iron wire by *CENTURIES* as the ferrous silicates in real wrought iron make it a pain to try to draw cold and the larger and less uniform they were in earlier bloomery irons the more difficult to draw them.

 

(The mastermyr drawplate was almost certainly for non-ferrous metals; the chest did contain items of non-ferrous use as well as the smithing stuff after all.)

 

As for largest chunk of steel that retains hardness at high temps I personally have never seen one over a couple of hundred kilos---H13 die blocks used in plastic extrusion/casting plants.