GRiley904 Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 I'm currently working my second high carbon knife, the first hitting the scrap pile fast. Firstly I have a couple questions. On this knife I'm using an old worn file. So far all is going very well. Although I do know it's high carbon, I'm not sure how to treat the material through the HT process. Should I treat it like what I've studied on 5160 or is that entirely wrong? And if so how would I go about it? I guys what I'm getting to is can anyone take the need to test this metal before the HT to find out exactly how to treat it,i guess I'm being lazy or impatient one considering how easy some of these tests are. However now I'm at a stand still because I ran out of charcoal and I'm still working on the knife blank so no bevels yet and still at a phase where I can test it witch isn't an issue because I still have the rest of the file. Thanks in advance for either the help or the kick in the seat. Pic coming soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Carnecchia Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Where did you get the steel? What it was in it's previous use can give you some clues. Beyond that there are some things that are going to be universal to most of the steels you would forge a knife from. Normalize 3 times. Austentize and quench in oil. Check to see if it hardened. If it didn't increase the temp a bit and repeat. After hardening you need to temper, this is where the mystery steel will give a bit more work. I always use the same steel so I set the thermometer and toss it in. You will need to start low and work your way up. start at around 350f should be safe, if it is still too hard increase to 375f. And so on. A pretty good test is sharpen the blade, and pull it across a brass rod, around 1/4". Push down enough to flex the edge a bit. If it is too hard it will chip, too soft it will stay bent, just right and it will return undamaged. If it is a big chopper with a thick edge this doesn't work and chopping through some hard wood is a pretty good test. Honestly I would recommend checking out New Jersey Steel Baron. New steel is cheap, and you don't waste time guessing. The temps are all published and come from years of industry testing. When you figure I the cost of your time, the steel is the cheapest part. Even if you are careful you can't get the results you can from known steel, and at worst the blade cracks and ends up in your scrap pile. Personally I would start with 1084, it is easy to forge, the heat treat is simple, and it makes a great knife. Just re-read your post and saw you are using a file, likely it's W-1 (or similar), but honestly it could be something else, no way to know for sure. Try what I said above and think about buying some steel for next time. -Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRiley904 Posted February 12, 2013 Author Share Posted February 12, 2013 Thanks Justin that was very helpful, I was planning on a differential temper for this knife but I think I'll take your route. Pic attached Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_bluegrass Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 In my experience (includes what I've read), old files tend to be very similar to 1095, W-1 or W2. 1095 and W-1 heat treat the same, W-2 need a bit more soak at temperature. First normalize. Heat to non-magnetic then a bit more. Quench in warm oil. Temper to suit the intended purpose. If you are familiar with decalescence (sp?) you can use that to determine when to quench instead of a magnet. You can start tempering at 325 for dedicated slicers (it leave the steel almost full hard but prone to breaking if dropped on a hard surface). There is always the possibility the file was case hardened which means you're getting practice with your hammering. ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRiley904 Posted February 12, 2013 Author Share Posted February 12, 2013 What does it mean if it was case hardened? Will it not fully harden our something like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Case hardening is where they use a low carbon steel and give it a thin shell of high carbon for hardness. All files are not equal. I've found some aren't worth spitting on, others like Nicklesons and the original Black Diamonds make most excelent knives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRiley904 Posted February 12, 2013 Author Share Posted February 12, 2013 I just took a look at the file and was able to make out the words "DELTA flat 2nd out “ and I'm doing some research.thanks for the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRiley904 Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 According to what I just read on delta files they are made from crucible steel but the arrival didn't say anything else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRiley904 Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 Delta File Works, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Files andrasps forallpurposes aremanufacturedbythe Delta File Works of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. All Delta files are made of refined cast steel which has been . tested andexaminedby experts before it is permitted to be made up. The statementhas beenmadethat mechanics who reallyknow steel and its properties can take a good file and after treating it properly, make knife blades from it. Such an operation, however, can not be performed except when the file in the first placeis of -the very highest quality. The trade-mark of the Delta File Works has been found in many shops wherethis process obtains. The Delta File Works is one of the companies that knows the value of high grade material and is aware of the fact that no productis betterthan thematerialfrom which itis made. All DeltaFiles are backed by a written guarantee of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRiley904 Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 Well my friend came by with the end of a bag of charcoal before my fire went out so I squeezed out a couple more heats. Didn't do much just refined the blank, but I thought I'd update the pic anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheoRockNazz Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Loads of potential. Great thing about case hardening steel is that you can edge quench. Works well if you're doing a heavier, thicker chopping blade, and with decent polish there may be a hamon (you can always set it in vinegar over night to make it pop). One more picture with a ruler for scale and a measurement of thickness would be fantastic. Thoughts on handle design? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 You can edge quench cased hardened steel? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRiley904 Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 I have put some thought into a handle and I have 2 ideas. Either a good wood with a high contrast grain, or a pale wood with some burning Incorporated. My friend wants this knife pretty bad and he suggested that e burn in the names of the players on our pool team and the team name our a logo of some sort. So I'll probably star a second blank in the same style. I'll post a pic to get an idea of scale soon, but the sun hasn't woke up yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheoRockNazz Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 ...er, now I'm doubting myself Rich... did I just give bad advice? I've achieved a visible heat treat line edge-quenching case hardening steel (Owen Bush gave me an old file in the UK he thought was case-hardenable, and I stock removed leaving as much original material on the edge side in case there was a carbon difference in the core). Perhaps I am mistaken, I fall to you for the final word Rich :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Carnecchia Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 No I wouldn't think you could do much in the way of knives with a case hardened file. GRiley: you can still differentially temper it. You would do the differential tempering after tempering in the oven. Typically you want 2-3 cycles of 1-2 hours each. I usually try for three, two hour cycles. After you have the blade tempered, you can draw the temper on the spine. Remember when tempering time is more important than temperature. there was a recent discussion on this on the ABS forum http://www.americanbladesmith.com/ipboard/index.php?/topic/897-draw-tempering-the-spine/ interesting stuff, but basically run it three times for a couple hours each, then if you want the spine softer hit it with a torch, just be careful not to let the heat get to the edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRiley904 Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Here is that scale pic I promised. I think I have the HT worked out but if there are any more comments or suggestions I would be glad to here them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRiley904 Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 I also left the stock at about 1/4 of an inch thick until I start working out the blade shape. Hoping to keep any errors fixable. But that will change Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_bluegrass Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 One thing I don't recall seeing mentions is edge thickness. (I may have missed it.) Before heat treating the edge should be at a minimum 20 thousandths (0.020) inch. Thicker is safer, that is just the thinnest edge thickness I've not had problems with during heat treat. If you don't have equipment to measure that then about the thickness of a dime. ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRiley904 Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 well I'm a bit frustrated. I broke the tang, I'm not sure if I got it too hot our hit it to cold. Then thinking I could still make it work I continued and broke it again. Off to the scrap pile, and man is it growing. Aggravated and wondering if I should go on with knifes our work on something else for a bit I decided to do it big. I'm working on a new blank and it's a good bit bigger. I'm gonna make a knife or run out of steel trying, at witch point I will buy some know steel and try some more, I'm determined. Here is a pic of the broken tang and another of the new blade in the works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Knifemaking is not a basic part of learning to forge,,,a good solid forging fouindation will smooth things out...just a wils gues has to do with fire management and control of heat in stock...basics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRiley904 Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 I wanted to put in a better shot of the break Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRiley904 Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Rich I would say you're right and that is why I was frustrated. But the joy I got from breaking that piece was incredible, and I noticed it only takes one heat for things to go wrong. After this third attempt success or fail I'll pick something else to do. I guess I'm just driven to the knives. No matter the result I'm having fun and won't get discouraged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhettbarnhart Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 that grain is huge!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRiley904 Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Would that be indicative of burning the steel? Or possibly something else, like say me not annealing the steel before working it. Looking back there are a few things in my minds eye that could have causes this but I'm pottery sure it came down to fire management or inaccurately judging the heat in my steel. Thank you guys for all the help so far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 I could type a few words in here that yoy would most likely forget by eve,,,or if youi want to know and are willing to,,,you can look into the heat treat stickies and see why this happened, Also It was covered in the eary knife making series in the forum. Yes blades msithing and smithing in general is more that just heat and beat,,,,,,,,just sayin! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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