Trip Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Hey yall, As some of you may know, I am building a log house, and I am st the point where I am needing some special wood working tools, but I would like to make them myself. The tools I am needing to make is a small carpenters axe, some old style framing chisels, and a LARGE draw knife. Now I was wondering what kind of steel I should get for these tools, I was thinking 4140, but I don't know enough about metal to be comfortable buying a load of it. Thanks, Trip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Why did you choose that steel? Have you read any of the other threads about what choices the experianced people are using? I can not see using the 4140 for any of those tools you listed, it will barely harden. Read the heat treat sticky to understand why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 Why did you choose that steel? Have you read any of the other threads about what choices the experianced people are using? I can not see using the 4140 for any of those tools you listed, it will barely harden. Read the heat treat sticky to understand why. Well that's why I am asking what kind of steel would be best to use because I don't know much about steel. I assumed 4140 would be ok since that is what my smithing hammer is made out of. Thanks, Trip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 So a smithing hammer is designed for a long life of flat impact loads. The tools you mention are all designed to cut and so profit from a sharp edge that lasts a long time. I don't see how you get from one to the other. You will want a higher carbon content for cutting tools. I would start by looking into something like 5160 as you will also be using these tools *hard* and so the extra toughness might be a help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 I use 4140 for axes, but I also build them on the tough side. For a carpenter's hatchet that's going to need to hold a fine edge for carving, I'd use something higher carbon. I disagree that it will "barely harden". The kind of stuff that I've seen 4140 that I've heat treated withstand doesn't bear that out. 5160 would be good and is an easy heat treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhettbarnhart Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 i agree with the 5160 it doesnt take anything complicated for heat treat either i usually normalize and harden 2 or three times and temper for an hour and a half at around 425-450 but it would be a good idea to double temper to get all the martensite tempered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_bluegrass Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 Depending on your skill level and if you want to heat treat and the equipment you have for that, I'd tend towards 1080 or 1095 for those tools. I'm made a couple of small paring chisels and a draw knife from 1095 with good results. ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 Depending on your skill level and if you want to heat treat and the equipment you have for that, I'd tend towards 1080 or 1095 for those tools. I'm made a couple of small paring chisels and a draw knife from 1095 with good results. ron As for my skill level, well I can't judge that part but I can scroll, bend, forge weld, do mortise & tenon joints, and I have hardened and tempered spring steel for knives I've made. And as for my equipment, well. Got a coal forge basic hand tools and a cutting/heating torch set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 For timber framing *stout* and *tough* are the bywords. BTW old bed rails are often a hardenable steel and can be modified into corner chisels fairly easily---check then out first with a heat/water quench/break test to see if it will work (and PLEASE wear PPE when breaking!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 Fopr wot youi are looking for if it was me I would use two different steels. I would look real close at leaf springs for the hatchet,,and I would form a mild steel wrap design with a leaf spring bit forge welded in place. Note I did not say the leaf spring steel is 5160 as it may not be...but it seems to be that some of them are..in anyh case i would use that steel. For chisels I would use as mentioned above..either 1084 or 1095 both heat treat easy and straight forward. They hold edges really well I would do a differential temper on them so the cutting edge is a little harder ,,but not brittle , than the chank of the tool.. There is info on this site about all of these tools including how to heat treat each, REcently there was a hatchet posted with a welded in bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 22, 2012 Author Share Posted November 22, 2012 Fopr wot youi are looking for if it was me I would use two different steels. I would look real close at leaf springs for the hatchet,,and I would form a mild steel wrap design with a leaf spring bit forge welded in place. Note I did not say the leaf spring steel is 5160 as it may not be...but it seems to be that some of them are..in anyh case i would use that steel. For chisels I would use as mentioned above..either 1084 or 1095 both heat treat easy and straight forward. They hold edges really well I would do a differential temper on them so the cutting edge is a little harder ,,but not brittle , than the chank of the tool.. There is info on this site about all of these tools including how to heat treat each, REcently there was a hatchet posted with a welded in bit. I thought about using a leaf spring today while eating some turkey. If I make some out of seaf spring it will be on tools for my own use. I did some research last night and from what I read, most woodworkers prefer chisels made out of A1 or O2 steel. The only problem about that for me is I will have to buy a heat treat furnace. :( Happy thanksgiving every one!!!!!!! Trip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_bluegrass Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 This woodworker prefers 1080 or 1095 or the like, many woodworkers don't understand steels and what the pluses and minuses are for the different steels. You just can't get as good an edge on A2 or O1 (I've not seen A1 or O2). They are easy to heat treat and don't require a soak (you generally get better results with alloy steels with a soak) and soak are harder to do well with a simple forge. ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 O2 is no longer made in the states, I believe it is still around in the UK. I love it for pattern welding. as its very dark, its referred to as O-1 with out the nasties for forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 23, 2012 Author Share Posted November 23, 2012 Ok so from what y'all have said and from some other info I have read, I think I am going with 1080 or 1095. Now can I anneal, harden, & temper 1080 & 1095 using my coal forge and a map torch? If so what's the process? Thanks yall!!!! Trip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 read the HT sticky's http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/56-knife-stickies-here/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakwoodironworks Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 I would recommend a book to you by Ray Larson "Tool Making for Woodworkers". It covers pretty much what you are asking about and has a lot of good information on forging tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 24, 2012 Author Share Posted November 24, 2012 I would recommend a book to you by Ray Larson "Tool Making for Woodworkers". It covers pretty much what you are asking about and has a lot of good information on forging tools. I just looked that book up and it costs anywhere from $125-$200!!!! I can put up with a LOT of trial & error at that price!! Lol. But thanks anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakwoodironworks Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 I must have lucked up on my copy. Only paid $25 for a used copy at Amazon plus free shipping. Another good book that I recently obtained is The Art of Traditional Blacksmithing : A Norwegian Perspective By Havard Bergland. He has a chapter on forging hewing axes, drawknives and adzes along with other woodworking tools. Also, chapters on heating treating, etc. This a hardback book (school text book quality). Got it from Artisans Ideas for around $59 using my ABANA membership discount. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_bluegrass Posted November 24, 2012 Share Posted November 24, 2012 You haven't looked in the right place for the book. http://www.cambiumbooks.com/books/hand_tools/0964399989/ Didn't look to make sure it's in stock but the price listed is $22.95 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 25, 2012 Author Share Posted November 25, 2012 You haven't looked in the right place for the book. http://www.cambiumbooks.com/books/hand_tools/0964399989/ Didn't look to make sure it's in stock but the price listed is $22.95 I clicked on the "add to cart" button, and it sent me amazon with a price tag of 75.00. Strange huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 25, 2012 Author Share Posted November 25, 2012 I must have lucked up on my copy. Only paid $25 for a used copy at Amazon plus free shipping. Another good book that I recently obtained is The Art of Traditional Blacksmithing : A Norwegian Perspective By Havard Bergland. He has a chapter on forging hewing axes, drawknives and adzes along with other woodworking tools. Also, chapters on heating treating, etc. This a hardback book (school text book quality). Got it from Artisans Ideas for around $59 using my ABANA membership discount. Hope this helps. I might try to get that book soon, but it will have to wait until I get paid for some stuff I forged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted November 25, 2012 Author Share Posted November 25, 2012 You might be needing one of these too? : http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IMG_0038_meddrag.jpg For marking the shape of one log to another, it should also be a good toolsteel. I have never seen any thing like that!!! What is it called? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_bluegrass Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I clicked on the "add to cart" button, and it sent me amazon with a price tag of 75.00. Strange huh? I didn't click on the button, but if I was interested in the book, I'd call/email and ask about the price difference. I've seen the book listed in a catalog or two I get and if memory serves it was listed for around $25. But maybe they've run out and if so I've seen books when prices run this high get reprinted by some out of the way bookbinder so keep looking. ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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