IRO-bot Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 I have made a few knives with a belt grinder, and I felt like I was cheating. I found this forum, (and saw stormcrow's knives!!) and wanted to heat some steal immediately!! I have always been a fan of Tim Lively and his as-forged look. I have been using the cheap steel at lowes to refine my techniques, but I have ran into a problem. I can make a decent tang, and even put some nice finger holds on it.. But how do you hammer in a bevel and get it square in the center!!! I always get a perfect bevel on one side, and barely anything on the other, and it's always leaning to the crappy looking side. Can someone explain what I am doing wrong??? Thanks for all you guys do for us new guys!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironsmith Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 only thing i can say is lowe's steel definately not cheap! try flipping more often to the other side, couple hits then flip, go slow... and lighten up the blowes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 The problem you are having is not with forging a bevel it is with basics of smithing. Time spent on basics are like gold. When yoiu begin anything new to you with a goal in mind it provides built in stumbling blocks. In this case yoiu wish a finished blade. If you worked on basics like tapering long pieces of round..Squaring them as you go,,and then into 8 sides then back to round you would see how the hammer and anvil work under your directioon as dies. The steel will move as youi position it to. If you hold the stock flat on the anvil and bevel it the anvil will act as bottom die and keep the bottom of the steel flat. If you tilt the steel a bit then youi will be beveling both sides at once. to[p side with hammer bottom side with anvil..BACk to basics.. TAke a foot loong piece of round or square stock..Forge a long taper keeping the bottom side flat to the anvil...Look it over and see how the metal moved. Think about wot you would have to do with moving the tip towards center. Words can only help so much..get into a group and see wot others do or seek one on one instruction. It will save you an immense amouing of time that may or may not be productive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRO-bot Posted September 16, 2012 Author Share Posted September 16, 2012 I feel that my lack of knowledge may be the issue as well. I have been playin with round stock for about 3 months, and have moved to flat stock. I have plate around a bit trying to learn as much about shapin the steel as i can. I can get the bevel great on the side that is facing away from me while holding the tang on the anvil, but the other side looks relatively flat. I use a 20oz ball peen do I don't go full on hulk smash it the thing. I am Going back to basics as we speak, but if anyone has any more advice for bevels, please share!! I'm going to try to make that octagon out I some round. I usually just make little chisel spears and arrow heads. Thank you for the advice!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Almost all ball pein hammers have a face that is too convex for making a good finish..Read how to rework a hammer in tool section,,better yet get a forgin hammer...Ball peins are great to have in shop for somethings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 I see no problem with learning to forge by forging blades, but I would say to use hardenable steel if you're going to do so. May as well have a knife when you're done if you do a good enough job forging, rather than a knife-like object. On top of that, the mild steel you're getting at Lowes is going to move under the hammer differently than high carbon steel like you use for a knife. Get your hands on some car spring and you should be ok, if you don't feel like ordering new knife steel (which is surprisingly cheap, though shipping adds to the price). As for the bevels, pay attention to how your hammer is angled. When you flip the blade over to forge the other side, make sure that the face of the hammer is at the same angle relative to the steel that it was on the other side. That usually means that when the edge of the blade faces toward you, you will be hammering with the bottom of the hammer face and the hammer handle will be angled down. When the edge is facing away from you, you will be hammering with the top of the hammer face and the hammer handle will be angled up. The angle of the hammer face is how you push the steel in the direction it needs to go. I agree that you may need to dress the corners of the face to keep them from leaving marks in your work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRO-bot Posted September 16, 2012 Author Share Posted September 16, 2012 I never even thought of dressing the hammer!! If I'm not paying attention, my hammer control is terrible, so if theres a way to get less dings, i'll try it! I have a big chunk of Aldo B.'s 1084 and some 5160 sitting here, but I didn't want to waste any because the shipping is almost as much as the steel!! I will heed your advice and get it hot next time I want to try a blade. Is there a desired angle or technique that can teach you how to hammer at such an angle? The issue seams to be more in the later stages of thinning out the bevel. I can get it pretty decent in the beginning, but it seams more difficult to hit at the proper angle when the blade is tilted towards me. I was wondering if flattening out the front of the cross section of my cross peen would be useful for such work. Has anyone tried that? In any case, I am just going to accept that I am going to have to ruin a couple pieces of steel to learn how to do it. Thanks for the advice!! When Im done playing with whats left of the round stock, I will put a chunk of the good stuff in the fire and give it another go. I will post pictures, good or bad, so you can see what the issue is. Thanks for all the info!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Oh, 'bout this angle. *indicates with hands* :D Can't tell you, really, as I do it by eyeball. On each heat as you are forging the edge, start at either the base of the blade or the tip and work to the other end, overlapping your hammer blows and maintaining the same angle. Hammer control is really the most important aspect to forging and until you get the instinct for it built up, you need to concentrate on how you are handling the hammer. One side will always be more difficult to work, it's just the nature of the beast. Practice will overcome that, but it'll still always be more difficult. I hear you on the shipping cost! If you want cheap practise steel that will behave like blade steel (most common source for blade steel in 3rd world countries), get some car spring. . Much of it is either 5160 or something similar. It'll move under the hammer and heat treat like 5160 (usually). Get familiar with the basics of shaping a blade and heat treating it, then break out the new stuff. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRO-bot Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 Well, the octagon was more trouble than I thought. I won't rest until I get a decent one!! Storm crow, you are the man!! I have some springs that are believed to be 5160 from a friend. I will put my limited skills to the test again when the rain stops. This time, I will focus on not hulk smashing the steel. That should yeald a slightly better result. Expect pictures by this weekend!! Thanks again!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregDP Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 Your problem is with your off hand not your hammering most likely. The spine of the blade needn't be on the anvil face the entire time you work the bevel. If start with the edge and spine on the anvil keep a firm twisting pressure on the edge with your off hand and you hammer to correct. I hope this makes sense. Something I found was that if I don't heat up and work the entirety of one side of the blades bevel in a single heat then I would end up with an inconsistent wavy edge. With practice I've been able to smoothly thin a convexed bevel using glancing angled blows toward me on one side and away on the other using a slightly convexed hammer. I do this carefully on the face of the anvil most often. This is less effective but easier than firm angled blows which should be done with the edge parallel to a softened (not sharp) edge. These can be done once a consistent bevel is acquired. The better hammer control you have, the flatter your hammer face should be. Too flat and you'll spend more time grinding out sharp divots. Too convexed and you'll end up with rounded low spots that are just as bad. My advice -- which may make some cringe -- is to round the most damaged edge of your anvil or to avoid outright chipping it or a hammer that is too hard. A good hammer will dent before it destroys your anvil, but accidentally hitting material that is over a sharp edge can ruin your work. Too far back and you'll have to redress your hammer. -- Be prepared to be offered a dollar (or more) less for an anvil if it doesn't have crisp edges. But my anvil is a tool, and I've found a radius-edge far more useful that the slightly dinged one that was there before. Keep at it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRO-bot Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 Makes sense. Maybe I'm holding too shallow of an angle when I hit one side. Another thing I picked up, I tend to work the bevel in the middle of the anvil. I am going to radius one side ASAP! It would be much easier to hammer an organic bevel off an edge just like forming the tip. I can't believe I never thought of that!!! You guys are awesome!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Yeah, one thing I tell my students when teaching knifemaking is to keep the tang off the anvil to keep from putting a bend in the blade that has to be taken out when they flip it over to work the otehr side. Keeps things straighter and saves time/effort/patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 My suggestion for starting material is to get a coil spring from a pickup and cut it down opposing sides, (torch, angle grinder, chop saw...) giving you a dozen or so "(" shaped pieces and forge them all into the same shape knife. This allows you to practice your heat treating as well---no good hammering a perfect blade if you destroy it in heat treating a bunch of times! As for the curving when doing a bevel. I have found it much easier to heat the blade up and stand it on it's spine and tap the edge with a hammer or even a mallet (or chunk of fire wood) to get the spine to lie flat on the anvil face. Do this on a regular basis while forging bevels. The precurve method works well; you just need experience to make it come out right. The Tap the edge method works all the time even for beginners---and it's surprising that with the blade hot you can tap even a quite thin edge without damaging it. If you worry about it use wood as the hammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRO-bot Posted September 18, 2012 Author Share Posted September 18, 2012 I started a new one today with 5160. I tried the counter curve thing, and I'm kinda hoping I curved or a little too much. I like recurve blades. I will try the taping as I go next time. The bevel is going a little easier, as well as a lot slower. I will post pictures when It's done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Note that a postvise is a great way to show you the status of your bevel as a good one will have parallel jaws and you can put the piece blade up in it and see if the edge tends toward one side or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 Good tip on the post vise jaws, Thomas. Never heard of that one. There are three ways I know of to control the curvature of a blade while forging. The two Thomas mentioned (counterbending and whacking the edge to bring the blade straight again) and forging the spine thinner. This will drop your point back down, but will pull your length and width out a bit. I end up using all three methods on a blade I forge entirely by hand. The power hammer dies I use change up knife forging a fair amount and I don't counterbend with them. Under certain circumstances you can control curvature with the heat treatment. I haven't gotten positive sori since I quench in oil, but I have been able to predict the amount of negative sori I would get from an oil quench on a quasi-Japanese style blade and forge in more curve than I wanted in the final product to end up just about exactly where I wanted it to be. Been lucky with that so far, and it only happens on certain blade cross sections for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 By no means am I an expert but there are two things I have found that works. For the curving of the blade I'll use a peice of 2x4 as the anvil. It doesn't tend to distort the edge near as bad as using something hard, just smokes a lot. My anvil sets higher than most, I can squat down and it's at eye level. This allows me to check for strait/flat as well as the bevil being correct and centered. A short piece of RR flipped upside down works wonders for this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted September 19, 2012 Share Posted September 19, 2012 As we move towards winter in the Norther hemisphere I should mention to not let a cold postvise conduction quench a hot blade! either warm the post vise jaws with a hot piece of steel clamped in them and/or do not let a blade sit in them very long and be sure it gets reheated afterwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted September 24, 2012 Share Posted September 24, 2012 If the bevel is all to one side in a blade maybe you have the blade lieing flat on the anvil rather than 1/2 the angle of your hammer face. In forgeing the near side, or cutting edge toward you you need your hammer hand to be lower in relation to the anvil than it would be to forge with the edge away. Forging both sides should give better results as the stresses of forging would be more uniform through out the blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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