Swage block and other tools, investment?

[Everything Mac]

Hi guys, - some back ground for you ...

I've been smithing as a hobby for about 5 years now; and since I left uni and started working full time I've been trying to expand my shop tools bit by bit as I haven't really had any major expenses to worry about. I work offshore for two weeks at a time, with a lot of down time and internet access, so I figured I'd invest in these bits and pieces while I could afford it - with the theory that should I ever turn professional in the years to come (many years away) that I would already have a decent bank of tools at my disposal so wouldn't have to spend so much in the long run.
Or at least I'd have a much better set of tools meaning that I can make a wider variety of things.
My most recent purchase was an upgrade for my anvil, from a mouse hole forge 62kg anvil (paid £10.50) to a 118kg Peter wright for £150.

The main bit:

Any way I've been Keeping my eyes out recently and a few swage blocks have come up for an acceptable price, as well as a small cone mandrel.

I'm curious to know if you guys find these useful tools to have in your shop? Are they worth having for that particular job? Or is it a case of they get used once in a blue moon and I could easily make do.

Having said that I'm ideally on the look out for a hand cranked blower as I'd like to keep my energy costs down.

All advice appreciated

Andy

[John McPherson]

I can say, with complete certainty: it depends. Part of the fun of joining a group and seeing demos at various shops is watching others at work, and snooping around in their tool racks gathering ideas on how others approach the work. :rolleyes:

If you do: demos at remote locations, small to medium work by yourself, on a lot of various projects, have to move tools around the shop/garage/shed/patio constantly, and/or just need a certain shape for five minutes or an hour, a small cone and swage block are great assets.

If it is a big, fixed shop with power hammers, cranes and strikers to help to make big products and move the big tools, a floor cone and big swage block on a stand are invaluable. The bigger items are relatively rare now because they were so seldom used in small shops, or wanted when the big shops closed, so went to scrap. They now seem to be good investments, and hold their value if you ever need to liquidate.

If it is a recurring item, or you need 100+ for an order, take the time to build a dedicated jig or fixture.

[Everything Mac]

Cheers John,

I help out at the centre that got me into smithing, we do small stuff mostly to sell to the kids who come in. (ie the kids parents) so there is no real need for one there.

Like you say I think they would both be great assets to have. This is the first mandrel I've seen on the UK eBay. But it is currently £180 having been re-listed from £200.

The swage block comes up a lt more often but these do tend to go for more money. I hadn't really thought about them retaining value, which is a very good point.


I would like to develop my skills and expand what I can do. Perhaps the money would be better spent on a course or two.

Cheers

[John B]

Hi Andy,
Firstly have you got space to keep them in? Both are handy to have around, but may seldom get used.

Cone mandrels are scarcer than swage blocks, but have a smaller range of uses ie normally used for rounding up hoops or rings

Swage blocks come in many shapes and forms, and traditionally they needed a stand to bring them up to an effective working height, and the mating top tools to maximise their usage.

Their are swage blocks for 'smiths, wheelwrights, and other allied smithing based occupations, each having their own specific tooling applications.

For general use, IMHO a small swage block with through holes (rather than slots) is a useful object, they can also be used to upset bar ends on,

As you are working in a 'smithing environment you should be able to assess how useful one would be for your situation,?

And more importantly, how often would you actually use it?

With more experience, practical, or taking courses, you will obtain a better understanding of what is necessary for your needs, as to what is desirable, or may just come in someday. There is usually a way round to achieve the same outcome using different setups, tools or methods.

Ask yourself "Whats going to give better value as an investment both short and long term",

a) tools you don't yet know how to use, and are not sure of their usefulness

B) investing in learning in skills to develop yourself into recognising and learning how to make your own tools, and learning new techniques.

c) and what tools you really need to effectively work .(knowledge or items)

Its your money at the end of the day and you choose how to spend it in your best interest, as an analogy, Just because you have a full socket tool/screwdriver set, does not mean you will use all the items in the box.

Good luck, and enjoy your journey, We are having a Forge in and agm of the Blacksmiths Guild Uk at Wespoint in a couple of weeks, see the entry in the Groups forum.

[Everything Mac]

Cheers John. I am as yet undecided, but will probably go down the courses route. Though I can afford both at the end of the day so we shall see.

I'd love to go to the forge in but I don't think I'll be offshore at that point. Which is a really shame.

All the best
Andy

[Dave Budd]

swage block yes, I get loads of use from mine (see the other thread) and use it almost daily. I think its a tool well worth having, especially if you don't have lots of swages for the anvil hardy (or you have hardy tools that don't fit your anvil). A cone madrel I don't think I would use at all, or at least not enough to warrant the space and cost.

[John B]

Just as a matter of interest, The cone mandrels were originally more used on the wheelrighting side of the blacksmiths trade for the hub/wheel bondings and any ring making required,

The swage blocks were used to form stock sizes of round and square section as the work being undertaken demanded. Bear in mind the smiths had to form their own 'stock size' mmaterial, making it from whatever origin source was available, they did not have the convenience of ordering stock size materials as we do today.

Any and all old cut off bits of wrought iron were saved and reworked into usable stock on projects, there was no such thing as scrap metal up to the introduction of industrial steel making on a commercial scale when material costs started to reduce and labour costs increase.

[MOblacksmith0530]

I will say I have finallly purchased a medium sized cone mandril after many years of looking. I have use in only a little but that is die to teh nature of the current work load. I will get a lot of use from it in the future I am sure.
As to the swage block I cannot imagine being without one. I have 3, two large ones in the shop and one small one for demo's, in my opinion they are invaluable in the shop unless you lave the time to make many swages for your hardie hole. You can find other ways of doinng the things you can do on a swage block but not as efficiently.

[David Einhorn]

It took me a few years to figure out how to use floor mandrels, but once I got the knack of using them they because indispensable, especially when I got around to making hub bands for the wooden wheels for my Traveling Forge. Swage blocks and mandrels I feel are handy for making spoons, bowls, chisels, gouges, bands, and various sized rings, etc. For me, using them is rather addictive. Once I got used to using swage blocks and mandrels, I would now find it difficult to do without them.

[GNJC]

Good questions to ask - and some good replies too.

I'm a very amateur smith and like making old fireside cooking kit, for this I need to use swage blocks quite a lot - both industrial and 'artistic' - and cone mandrels now and then.

I think your plan of watching and waiting for the right kit is spot on, if you see tools in good conditon at a good price get them! At the worst you can re-sell later and get your money back, maybe with a bit of profit too.

Although I've no illusions about my expertise, I'd like to go semi-professional eventually, making cooking kit to order; to that end - and again, like you, while I can spare the cash - I have bought equipment that I think has future potential for me, when I have seen it at the right price.

Get the biggest cone mandrel you can, it will be easy to move if you need to and you will always be able to sell it if want to.

A bit of advice that I have not seen above... don't buy a swage block that is too big to move easily! For me a 12"x12"x4" industrial block is ideal, the 14"+ ones are just too big to turn around at whim. (Of course, if you are buying for investment or for heavy workshop use this may not apply)

[ThomasPowers]

When I started making spiders for renaissance downhearth cooking I started using my cone mandrel a *lot* and wish I had a larger one as trying to true up a forge welded circle on the swage block was a pain.

[Sask Mark]

Here's my take on it. I only get about 1-2 days per month for about 8 months (before the winter sets in) to do any forging. I don't want to spend that time looking for a tool or making a tool to forge something. My time is valuable enought that I want to forge what I want to forge.

I told a guy I was looking for a cone mandrel and he said 'Why would you buy a cone mandrel? Just go to the junk pile and get what you need to substitute for a cone mandrel'. I replied that: a) I don't want to spend any time looking for a tool and; b I don't have a large junk pile to look through.

If you can afford it, then I say buy it. That way you can focus on forging what you want to forge.

[ThomasPowers]

I have several small cones from the scrap yard and one of the ballistic missile nose cone cone mandrels but haven't seen anything suitable as a replacement for a large cone mandrel---and I'm a looking! When my renaissance Cooking friend started getting *large* (20 gallon) pots and wanting spiders for them my nose cone is NOT big enough. I almost could use a wagon tyre roller save that these are bent the hard way.