Black Frog Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Now that I have my press all operating nicely, I want to make some sort of tool holder for it. It does have the large block that is bolted in, shown in my other thread: http://www.iforgeiro...me/#entry294151 But now I want to fabricate some sort of quick-change holder that can stay in there. The rear of that "block pocket" in the press has a flat rear wall and then two angled 45 degree sides coming towards the front. I thought I could design something that works with that feature, and then is held in place by the large tool block bolted in from the front. Bore a 1" (or a bit oversized) hole in this holder, and have setscrew hole for the tooling. This design also gives a nice flat bottom side of the holder so that any tooling can have a shoulder on it for support. All tooling would then be made with a 1" diameter shaft with shoulder. Is this a good idea? See any changes needed, or better approaches? I have some 3" diameter round stock in the shop, so that's as large as I can go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Mine is just round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 Does it have a bottom shoulder on it? Or just a straight cylinder? What diameter? Is the bore for 1" shank tooling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 So the V in the back of the ram recess matches/alines with the V in the bolted block ? If that is the case it seems like nothing more is required. Just insert the tool shank in the opposing V's and tighten the removable block. Could well be that I am missing something here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 I'll try to get out to the shop and measure it tonight. It does have a shoulder and a 1" bore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 Yup, the V the proposed holder matches the V in the back of the ram. I'm oversizing the flat face just a tad, so when tightened all the forces are on the angled side walls, and leaves just a smidge of a gap on the flat back wall. It would be tough to perfectly match what is in there without some detailed measuring, so rather than having things with possible side play, I'll have the V sides center it up and provide the mating surfaces. I'm also deciding on the height of the holder. This will determine whether the shoulder on the bottom takes all the force, or if it is slightly taller the top surface of the holder will take the force. Is 1" bore common for tooling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Looks like the holder design is well considered. The only other suggestion is that the tool hole be drilled all the way through the holder body. This is so that if a tool ever did get stuck in the holder you could drive it out from the bottom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 As most tooling for these things is home built I think that the default size depends on the owner and what they can source easily and hopefully cheaply. The numbers I have hear around were generally 3/4" for smaller presses and 1" for larger---but whatever you want! Measure a few things like trailer hitch balls, dome headed RR bolts, large bolts at the hardware store, etc and decide what works best for you. It's not like it's going to be welded in place you may end up with a bunch of different holders over time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 Looks like the holder design is well considered. The only other suggestion is that the tool hole be drilled all the way through the holder body. This is so that if a tool ever did get stuck in the holder you could drive it out from the bottom. Ahhhh, good idea. Or maybe a 1/4" drift punch hole instead. If I come across some 1" dia tooling that didn't have a shoulder on it, I can still have the tool bottom out in the bored hole and be useable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Getting shoulders on 1" S or H steels is a whole nother subject. However shoulders are the safe way to go for your tooling. Do have a look at the demo hammer tools as a convenient source for your smaller shouldered tools. Another holder will allow the use of these smaller tools with preformed shoulders and will probably be worth the effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 Demo hammer tools? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will. K. Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Demo hammer tools? Demolition hammer chisels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted August 23, 2012 Author Share Posted August 23, 2012 Thanks, never looked at them before. More stuff to get ideas from! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOblacksmith0530 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 Okay a couple of points I would make. Be sure to have a shoulder on ALL tools. The shank should NEVER touch the bottom of the hole in the tool holder or you stand the chance of upsetting it into the holder. If you do upset it into it even having a hole in the bottom may not allow it to come out. Almost all holes unless they are honed have grooves in them and if you swell the shank into these grooves it will become one piece. I use 1" tool holders and I but 1" bolts with an unthreaded shoulder that is a few thou under 1" these are as purchased. I cut the threads off and weld the tool of my choice onto the flat head of the bolt. Keep it oiled up with way oil of bar and chain oil if you don't have way oil. I also make my bottom tool first if it is two piece and then make the top tool and put it in align it and tighten the retaining bolt this leaves a nice mark that I can use to align it to grind a flat onto it for indexing to the bottom tool. If you have a flat where the retaining bolt grabs the top tool it will come out better than if you just tighten onto the round shank that will also swell the shank and make it stick. I have flats on all my tools (some have several) so when I put it in the lock bolt is always on a flat. Hope this helps. I would take some pics but I am out of town and won't be back for a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOblacksmith0530 Posted August 25, 2012 Share Posted August 25, 2012 OR bar and chain oil dang it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted September 6, 2012 Author Share Posted September 6, 2012 Here's what I came up with in the shop. Fits nicely in the press. The bottom lip extends just a tad below the block holder in my press, so all the forces will be on the top/bottom surface and not on the lip edge. I bored the hole a bit oversized at 1.020" so that if any tooling has some dings on the shaft it'll still be fine. Or if the tool gets quite hot and expands some as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOblacksmith0530 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 Looks good, now get you some one inch bolts and start making your tooling...... they ar ekind of like spring tools for the power hammer you can never have enough..:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Looks good, now get you some one inch bolts and start making your tooling...... they ar ekind of like spring tools for the power hammer you can never have enough.. :) I like your idea of welding the tool steel tooling to 1" diameter bolts for a consistent size holder. I however I wondered if you have tried/considered using 1" diameter structural shear studs in lieu of structural bolts. In my area there shear studs are available for $1.07 each at Fastenall, and you can get them in lengths down to 1 1/2 inch so that a length can be selected that does not need to be cut to length. I plan to make up a few tools this way and give them a try. What process and materials do you use for the welds with type S and H steels ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOblacksmith0530 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I had never looked at them. I did take a look online after I read this and I see a radius at the transition that may be in the way and wedge into tht tool holder or have to be removed. you could also put a slight chamfer in the tool holder to prevent this. As far as welding the s and H steels I have used simple mig wild steel and then anealed the weld. Heat the whole thing up and then put it down into wood ash with the tool end exposed it will not get full hard that way so be careful of that. I do have one slitter I use to cold groove mild steel and I made it out of s-5. I just welded it and did not heat treat after in any way and it has held up for a couple years. most of the force is straight down so it seems this is good enough. I have made some tools for decorating the edges of bars by welding ball bearings to the bolt heads with the mig and let them air cool. They are tough enough to easily make the mild steel with little or no wear over a few thousand impressions. Just set the spacing to different widths and weld them on the bolt head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted September 12, 2012 Author Share Posted September 12, 2012 In the Flypress DVD I rented for a bit more info- I see how he uses 1" steel rod (mild steel I think) and puts a shaft collar on the end and welds it to provide the shoulder. Grinds it flat and then welds on his formed tool steel, S1 I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will. K. Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Does anyone upset & form the collar out of the parent bar rather than welding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted September 12, 2012 Author Share Posted September 12, 2012 Could be tough to get a nice 1" shaft with tight 90oshoulder by upsetting? I have a good supply of 1.5" round stock of 1018 steel. I was just going to turn down a bunch of 1" shouldered tool blanks in the lathe, and then weld tool steel to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Frog Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 Had some time in the shop to get some tool blanks made. Four made so far, and then have some 3/4" S7 steel that I will forge/form/temper and then weld to the tool blank. I didn't mill a flat spot on the tool blanks for the set screw yet, that might depend on what tool goes on there. These were made from 1018 steel that was 1.5" in diameter. Turned it down to the 1" shaft and left 1/2" worth of collar on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOblacksmith0530 Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Yup those should do nicely Black Frog. I made a few of my first ones that way and they work real well. I just use the bolts now cause they are cheaper and faster. You are right on the money with the flats. I don't put flats on any of them until I put the tool end on so I get them indexed right and some don't get them at all if I want to use them at different angles. If they are going to be used with a bottom tool of some sort I just install it bring down the ram and align it and then tighten it. I use my slitters and groovers that way. I have been wrangled into doing a demo at a meeting in November on Fly presses. My friend who is having the meeting has the same one I do so I get to load up all my tooling and haul it clear across the state to his shop. I hope I don't make an ass out of myself. I am still learning the flypress and its many uses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 I didn't mill a flat spot on the tool blanks for the set screw yet, that might depend on what tool goes on there. I put the recess for the end of the grub screws on mine after setting its rotational position as well. I say 'recess' rather than 'flat' because for things like punches or forming tools which require some pull to get out, if the grub screw bears on a flat parallel surface it can drag and spall. So I make the surface effectively a wedge/dovetail. The tool shoulder stops movement going into the work and the dovetail/wedge effect makes the grubscrews tighten as you withdraw the tool thus restricting slippage on the way out. This system will withstand 15 tonnes, and can stall my 30 tonne hydraulic press on the upstroke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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