Massey 3 cwt Installation

[Astro_Al]

Hi guys. I'm in the process of buying and installing a 3 cwt clear space hammer. Just got to pay the last 20% and organise shipping it down to my workshop.

John N has sent me all the historical info on my two Massey hammers, plus the installation info - thanks a lot John, you might want to invoice me at some point!

I guess I'll document the installation as I go in this thread, but it'll take a while as Ive spent all my money on buying it!

I have a few questions to start off with, I'm sure there will be many many more before I'm done.

1. I intend to lift the hammer by say 4 or 5 inches. I'm looking at some timbers, is there any reason to choose oak over treated pine?

2. I can't afford the fabreeka mat stuff, and my concreting skills are hardly expert. On that basis, I'm looking at some cheapo self levelling compound to pour into the anvil hole. Anyone know what's good, and will stand the test of time without costing the earth?

3. Is there any point in stuffing some rubber mat or anything under the hammer or anvil or both? Or is it fabreeka or nothing?

4. Regarding hammer/anvil placement, presumably the real danger is in placing the anvil too low resulting in the ram bottoming out? That being the case, is the aim to put the anvil as low as possible, to maximise available stroke, without risking bottoming the ram? Is there a standard target height for the anvil, like ram bottom position minus 1/2 inch or something? What is a safe margin?

5. What grade of concrete is good for the base block? I did my floor in C35 with fibres, is that good? Do I want fibres in it? I'm assuming I want rebar up to the eyeballs?

6. Since I have to dig the pit and order a truck load of concrete anyway, is there any advantage in going 10 or 20 percent bigger than recommended?

7. Anyone, John?, know how hard it is to rotate the ram by 45 degrees? I wouldn't mind the dies being skew to the machine, but right now they are set up to be straight on. If its a can of worms, I'll leave it.

8. The former for the concrete anvil space just needs to allow room for the anvil to drop in, right, no special tight tolerances or whatever?

9. Any tips or no-nos for lifting and shifting the hammer? Just sling it under the body between ram and main column?

Not a bad list considering it hasn't even arrived yet eh?!

Thanks for any help, Al.

[Farmweld]

Hi Al,

I've just been through the interesting exercise of installing a 2CWT clearspace Massey so I'll try and answer as many of your questions as I can.

1. I lifted mine 100mm (4") by pouring the footing that much higher than floor level. I wouldn't recommend spacing the hammer up with wood as this will throw all your footing calculations out by the same amount and if the wood compacts at all you will have to keep tightening up the hold down nuts. If you ever remove the spacers then you immediately loose the same amount of stroke and the hammer will probably bind on the anvil before it is fully down.

2. You're going to need something under the anvil to protect the concrete. The old manual recommends hardwood boards but they will compact/disintegrate over time needing replacement. Mining conveyor belt is a fairly good substitute if you can get some about 1" thick. The hammer can be bolted down onto 1" thick boards (as per install instructions) as it is not subject to the same loads as the anvil is. Mine's on 19mm Formply which seems to be hanging in there with no problems so far.

3. See above.

4. Yes there is a standard target height for the anvil, unfortunately I don't have any specs for the 3CWT so you will have to get them from John N. There are witness marks on the shaft to indicate the lowest the ram can go and going lower will probably start getting very expensive. The target height for the anvil lets you swap tooling around without getting too close to the witness marks.

5. I went with 42 MPA. Don't know what this equates too in the UK but our base grade is 25 MPA and the 42 is a fair bit harder than that. The concreters enjoyed working with it a lot more than the base stuff as well. It gets bloody hot when it is going off as well.

6. It doesn't hurt having more mass under the hammer. I went 20-25% bigger purely because the blokes diging the hole got a bit too enthusiastic and it worked out well with very little vibration transmitting through the floor to even a metre or so away. There's about 50-60m of various different size rebar rod in there as well. The main thing is to have your hold down bolt setup sorted out really well before you even think about pouring concrete. The install manual shows "T" headed bolts that you can remove if needed. I welded mine solid onto the reo with multiple passes and I hope I never have one break.

7. Rotating the ram is easy as long as the hammer isn't mounted yet. Undo the nuts on the stuffing box (taking care to support everything so it doesn't all drop out on the ground), drop the stuffing box down and rotate away. There are witness marks to show you which way to turn things so you don't line one of the ring gaps up with an air port. If the hammer is mounted you have to lift it off, pull the anvil and turn it, turn the ram, and then re-mount the hammer (finding you've gone 45 degrees either way and the dies are now at 90 degrees to each other, redo until correct alignment is achieved).

8. There is a set size for the anvil former which you will need to get from John N. It's roughly an inch bigger all the way around. Two other things:
a) A quick hint, when the anvil is in position in the footing wedge the bugger in TIGHT. Once the hammer is mounted align the dies, tighten the bolts, and then wedge the anvil in the hammer as well. I had the anvil move just a mm or so with each stroke and it was an almighty pain trying to do fine work, re-wedged it all tight and now it is easy to work with
B) A word of warning: when pouring the footing make sure the anvil former is really anchored securely as it is amazing the amount of "lift" concrete has got. Mine had three acroprops up to the rafters and it still lifted 10-12mm. Get professional concreters to do the footing because if it stuffs up, they have to dig it out and redo it. If you stuff it up you have to pay for professionals to dig about four cubic metres of concrete out and then start again from scratch. I know which I'd prefer.

9. I just used two slings, one between the ram and main column, the other ran down the back and around the main drive shaft and back up. With a bit of adjustment the hammer lifted quite level. The other way I have seen was with a forklift, big block of wood between the ram and column and a bar across the forks with a tagalong down to the drive shaft.

I took about a day to make up the reo "cage" to go in the footing, mainly because I welded the hold down bolts in and I rechecked everything after each pass to make sure nothing had wandered from where it was meant to be. I then had to make a frame to hold the cage and anvil former in alignment when the concrete was being poured. The concrete guy was paranoid about the former lifting, hence the three acroprops, and he was right to be paranoid as it did still lift a bit. He also used a vibrator on the concrete and it was amazing the amount of air that came out (another hint, drill three or four 1/4" air holes in the bottom of the anvil former as it will collect bubbles. I had to fill them with bog to get a flat surface for the anvil mat to sit on.) After all this it then took me about three goes mounting and remounting the hammer to get everything set up and wedged in properly. Definitely worth taking your time and doing it all properly though as the end result is fun to play with.

Hope some of this helps

Andrew

[nonjic]

I put about 700kgs of anvils on my former (and cross braced it, bolted to the floor), it diddnt shift :D

My 2 cwt is sitting on 5" of old (milled flat) rail sleepers to boost the working height - I cant see them compressing in my lifetime. I worked on the basis its much easier to pour your concrete to existing floor level, and have a shallow pocket for the anvil block, than to make formers to continue the pour above existing floor level.

I cut lots of corners putting my 2 cwt in, with the size of the inertia block hold down bolts configuration etc, and from memory I recon there was 100 man hours work untill I hit hot metal (2 guys dug the hole with picks and shovels and a breaker, & with cutting through the existing slab that was 20 hours straight off!)

I talked a lot to Owen when I put mine in as he was installing a 2 cwt alldays at the time - his labour time for the install was similar to mine I think ! sounds a lot of hours but it soon goes.

If I put another one in for me, and I did not have the time constraints I had putting in the '2' I would go much bigger on the inertia block size (ie, to drawing dims as a minimum). The vibration is very noticable from my light duty foundation when running flat out on thin hard material (ie, stuff falls of shelves!). I knew I was skimping when I did it, butit does not really matter for my use as the hammer is only used once in a blue moon, in the middle of a large industrial zone.

edit, 2 things....

1)make sure the bedplate of the hammer is well bedded on the timbers, they can and do break if you try and pull them down with the foundation bolts, perhaps not straight away but they do sometimes let go!

2)you will love the power and control of the hammer long after the ball ache of installing the thing has passed :D

[JNewman]

1 I agree that pouring the concrete higher is a good way to go. The drawings for the 5cwt call for 1.5" of oak under the frame. I would go with a hardwood such as oak under the hammer rather than pine. Pine will likely compress in places and cause you problems. I used Sapele under my hammer because it is almost as hard as oak and I keep it in stock for patternmaking. One advantage of building the hammer up with timber is if you ever have to move it you won't have to cut away the concrete.

2,3 Spend the time leveling your form work accurately exactly and make sure it will not move during the pour. Make sure your anvil has not been machined to compensate for shifting timbers I found out mine had been machined in place after timbers under the anvil had compressed so the top of the anvil is no longer parallel with the bottom. I ground concrete away with a diamond wheel rather than trying to use a leveling cement. I used a 1/2" conveyor belt under my anvil but I don't think I would again. The bottom die bounces more than I would like. According to John N the fabreeka is quite hard. To compensate for the machining out of level I used a wedge made from baltic birch plywood to level the bottom anvil. It has not compressed or shifted in about 4 years so if I ever move the hammer I will likely use a sheet of that under the anvil. It is incredibly tough. I do agree you need something under the anvil to
avoid destroying the concrete.

4 I cannot add anything to Farmweld's post

5 I had them add fiber I believe I went with 25 or 30mpa I did add lots of steel, kept it wet for almost a week and didn't use the hammer till the foundation had cured for a month.

6. I agree more mass is better and would have gone deeper but I hit groundwater and would have had caving in issues had I gone any deeper. I forged the t bolts and I think it was well worth the time. It made installing the hammer easier, the threads didn't get dinged and if I ever break one I can replace it. If I decide I want to raise my hammer which I may one day I can replace the bolts.

When I poured I drilled a hole about 1.5" to let air out of the anvil forming I would drill several holes if I were doing it again, probably around 1". I caulked around the top wedges with a caulking gun polysulfide and poured a liquid around the bottom wedges to prevent scale from lifting the anvil over time. I wish I had made the foundation wider in a section large enough to mount a jib crane.

I am thinking of an addition to my shop and much as I hate to think of moving the hammer but I am considering moving the blacksmith shop to the addition.

[Astro_Al]

Hi guys, well, I finally got my hands on it.

Had it delivered yesterday and craned into the workshop - out of the way while I start work on the foundation.

Must be a tonne of tooling with it too, I stuck my boot in the photos for scale.

I've got some work to do for a few weeks, while I save my pennies for the concrete saw / breaker / digger hire, but I'm another step closer!

Cheers, Al.

[Astro_Al]

Oops - double post. Al.

[Dillon Sculpture]

One step at a time, looks great, nice shop! Love that truck! From the looks of the tooling it came out of a architectural iron shop?

[forgemaster]

It always amazes me that regardless the size of the massey, if you rig the slings as done in the photos above they always pick up that close to dead level it isnt worth fighting about it. I have never used any reo in any of my hammer foundations, all still going good 12 years later. With our 2cwt alldays I put in some self leveling grout of about 2" thick under the anvil before I put the conveyor belt on top of that. Still seems to be going good too. I would recomend the T head bolts, we put in a Davis and Primrose hammer years ago in our workshop, it managed to break off 2 of the hold down bolts, (that werent T bolt,s just 1 1/8" bolts welded to large plates that were submerged into the concrete) never want to have to go through that again, took a fair bit of chipping, threading, swearing, etc all taking place in the dirt on the floor whilst trying to work in a small hole I had made down the side of the broken bolts. The massy foundation book does caution on using concrete of too high a strength, as the higher strenght does not seem to absorb the shock of the hammers blow as well as the lesser strength, leading to increased vibration. On the subject of reo, I was told by a civil engineer, that reo is added to concrete to allow it to form structural forms or members such as bridge beams, slabs, columns etc, for a foundation of a hammer he advised it just has to be a large monolithic block, much the same as a rock, and reo is in his opinion un-necessary. But it is up to you.

Phil

[forgemaster]

But it is up to you. (I just love the way the internet is fool proof, just proves I am a fool) ie triple post

Phil

[forgemaster]

It always amazes me that regardless the size of the massey, if you rig the slings as done in the photos above they always pick up that close to dead level it isnt worth fighting about up to you.

Phil

[basher]

It is an exiting thing to see. Keep tabs on how long the installation takes .Even if the cost and time seem excessive once its done .....Its done! A two hundred hammer has changed quite a lot of the ways I now forge!!
Enjoy!

[nonjic]

Looking good Al!

Thats one of the first hammers I sold, a couple of decades ago - the guys you bought it from just pipped me getting hold of it earlier this year :D

IIRC we bought 2 '3cwt' from a rail maintenace yard in Salford. Funny enough we were working on you hammers 'twin' today in Sheffield at an orthopedic forge.

Im loving that waggon they delivered it on. Want one!

[Astro_Al]

Hi guys, thanks for your comments.

Yes, the truck was a talking point. Cost £250000 including trailer and crane, what's that about 450000 USD? And there I was struggling to pay for the hammer...!

Yes DD, seems you're about right. Lots of the tooling is for the kind of stuff you find in an 'architectural iron' parts catalogue, about a third is proprietary tooling for what were obviously specific customer needs, and the rest is standard stuff like fillers, tongs, flatters and standard swages etc. xxxx useful I think, although some of it is unbelievably heavy, not sure how I'd ever use it - not sure how anyone ever did!

Yes, exciting it is, got to pace myself and do it right first time though.

Anyone know if there is a serious surge current on the motor when starting? Is a 32 amp supply enough for this, or should I put a 64 in?

John, I made notes on what you could remember about my hammer when we spoke on the phone. Is that orthopaedic place the same as the one on YouTube where the guy is sitting down at a ?5? cwt working through a set of small parts turning 90 degrees between blows? Anorak? Moi?

Yes the guys from Qualimach mentioned that you were interested... Glad I had primed them to find one for me! (sorry, got to spread the love, man!). The guy from Forgetec (I think?) offered it to me first, but at a higher price, I guess he didn't want to bother extracting it. There was a 40kg Sahinler there too, I think that went to Ireland. I almost took them both, but with the little Massey it seemed like doubling up.

Phil, I note your thoughts on concrete grades with interest. For rebar, I was going to throw some in if only to add structure to the hold downs. Yes, my fear is something giving way after the concrete has set, I will look into the T head bolts, I've not come across them before.

I know, it was a gorgeous lift, you couldnt even see when it left the deck - the angle didn't change at all. I wish they were all that simple, including the top-heavy lathe I dropped a couple of years ago... That is why I went with a machinery mover and not a lorry driver. He knew exactly how to think round problems and 'finesse' it into place, and the fine control on the crane was simply awesome, even rotating at a long reach.

Cheers, Al

[nonjic]

Yup, im pretty sure the '3' on my youtube is the sister hammer, but we have swapped all theirs round a couple of times so cant be sure anymore (we sometimes just swap the hammers over for a spare when one needs fixing!)

Wasnt too upset at not getting it Al - truth be told its very hard work making money on small hammers !, the margins can tip the wrong way if they dont come out of the ground easily, access is bad, or they need repair or whatever!

Im going to have to book that transport company for a job, just to get a good look at the waggon :D

Phil, Ive lifted 40cwts the same way in one piece, you can still leave your cup of tea on them without fear of sloshing any! - we put a bar of steel in behind the strap (so its trapped against the casting) to remove any chance of it slipping forwards once lifted and moving.

[Astro_Al]

Yes, I bet that's right. Apparently this one was a total pig to remove, took them 3 days... Fortunately we agreed the price first, I don't think they were too pleased. Nothing but good things to say about the guys at Qualimach though, if anyone needs a tool or 2, I would recommend them wholeheartedly.

I know, the driver had just t-cut the white painted sides of the bed too, I nearly shat myself driving my rattly old forklift near it! They are based in Somerset but g all over the UK. Really good to deal with.

Al