Trip Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 Hey yall, Well today I had the honor to work with Dave Custer at his blacksmith shop (FFF LLc), and whats better is, I got to try out his new tire hammer!!!!! WHAT FUN!!!! Thanks Dave!!!! (Oh and Dave, you don't have to tell about that, remember I have only used a power hammer like 5 times in the past 2 years) LOL Now, I have a feeling that I will be building a power hammer of some sorts before summers end, and I have been looking at helve hammers, kinda like the "Rusty", but maybe a little more....... oh how should I say it???? ...... Factory built. kinda like the one in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTP9ZnaaHkI I have never used a helve hammer before, just a tire hammer, little giant, and air hammer, now I know I don't have the checking account for an air hammer, or little giant. So I have it narrowed down to a tire hammer or helve hammer, and personally I am a little........ no not a little..... I am BIG TIME intimidated by all the parts (moving and stationary). Now I know some one will read this and say to them selves "Awwww come on its a piece of cake" but let me tell you, for this backwoods Kentucky boy, its pretty intimidating. So after seeing the video above on the helve hammer I was like "hmmm that doesn't look all to complicated, all the moving parts are near the bottom, and one "biggun" ;) on the top. I feel confident that I can build a helve hammer from what I can see on that video, and using dimensions of my own, BUT I am not to sure on how a helve will handle compared to a tire hammer in the way of hammer control, and speed control. So if you will bring me up to speed on the pro's and con's of these hammers, and if you were a young fella who had only one shot within the near future to build just A hammer and have to LIVE with it for a year or 2, Which would you build? Thanks, Trip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormcrow Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 I have a guided helve "Rusty" style hammer with a spare tire clutch. The guided helve is about three steps up in complexity from as absolutely simple of a power hammer there is, which is one reason I chose that path. The tire clutch gives better control than I've seen on the Little Giants I've used, though it hits somewhat slower the way I have it set up. Still over 200 beats a minute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptree Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 I have a guided helve like a Rusty, and I would say having built many machines it is far easier to scrounge for and to build than any other JYH design. I too have a spare tire clutch, and find it extremely controllable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted May 7, 2012 Author Share Posted May 7, 2012 what do yall mean about a tire clutch? I am new to all this power hammer stuff, so photos would be a big help for me to understand what yall are talkin about. Thanks Trip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Spare tire clutch on a rusty hammer is simply a motor with a round solid pulley which rotates a tire. (Just like the tire hammer.) The drive rod on the rusty is then placed off center on the tire so that when the tire rotates the rod moves up and down creating the sea-saw motion of the helve hammer. A break pad can be rigged to stop the tire so that you gain hit-stop controllability. (That's important!) I've never used a rusty style or any style helve hammer, however, in theory, I would consider the spare tire system superior to the v-belt pulley system. Check out the online gallery of rusty helve hammers accessable from the rusty helve hammer site. Many of the hammers pictured there are run off of spare tire systems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 Hey yall, Thanks for the info!!!!!! I think I am going to go with the helve hammer, and I got some more questions. Imagine that!!!! :D On, I guess you would call it the helve? (the piece of leaf spring on the top) What size leaf spring do Need for #50 hammer, and should I straighten it or leave it curved? Also what size motor should I use? And how big of a anvil post do I need ( I am planning on using solid steel, not wood or anvil)? thanks, Trip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Anvil to hammer head ratio of 10:1 minimum, 25:1 optimum. If you get to 15:1 it'll be great. Solid steel or cast iron is a must, as few welds and horizontal joints as possible. There are quite a few designs for good built up power hammer anvils out there, start reading. Spring size depends on a lot of variables, if you want specific answers buy a set of plans. Or do more googling. A 50# hammer should run just fine on a 1.5 or 2 hp motor, on the lower end for a guided helve type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 weight wise a 15:1 ratio that would put your anvil post at 750 lbs. (for a 50 pound head, if I'm reading you right, you are saying 15 x 50 = 750) Wow! The posts we used in the NC tire hammer build last year were between 6 and 8 inch solid rounds. They weighed an average of about 420 pounds each. My tire hammer has a 7 inch post and does just fine. It would be interesting though to use one with a post closer to your ratio and see how much more efficient it would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptree Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Judson speaks the truth. I started my hammer at 32# and when I boosted to 45# ram I did not see the increase in moving metal I expected. I was able to scab on heavy plate and brought my anvil to 15+:1, and wow! I recently boosted the ram to 70# and am in the market for more plate:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bajajoaquin Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Ptree doesn't tell us the original weight of the anvil, but some assumptions and some math explain the reason for the improved performace on Ptree's new anvil. If he was at 15:1 with a 32lb ram, the original anvil was 480 pounds, and 77% efficient. When he went to a 45lb ram, he increased the weight 28%, but the efficiency of the anvil went down to 67%, which means the performance only went up by 20%. So that means, in round numbers, he only got two thirds of the increase in performance he expected. If his anvil was under-weight to begin with (say 300 lb), then his anvil would have gone from 65% efficient to 55% efficient, and he would have only seen a 15% increase in performance for his 28% increase in size, or about half of what he would expect. None of this goes to the discussion about tire hammer versus Rusty, but it does say that anvil size is important. If you build a bigger ram, you have to make the rest of the hammer stronger and heavier, meaning more expense, and more wear. But if you maximize the size of your anvil, you get extra hitting power for "free." (Of course, it's not free, but you don't have to scale up the rest of the strengths to accommodate a larger anvil.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trip Posted May 13, 2012 Author Share Posted May 13, 2012 Although I have said that I have decided to go with the helve hammer, I still have reservations about it. The main reason is because I have never used one, and there for don't know if I will like it's control, speed, and power. To where I have used a tire hammer, and know that I like it, but am intimidated on building one with only a set of plans, and no REAL knowledge of tire hammers. Does any one know of where I can find a list of the dates and locations where Clay Spencer will be holding tire hammer build classes? The reason I am asking this, is because I have been asked by a potential client to build them a tire hammer!!!!!!! So I am thinking if I go to a class, build me one, and then I can build them one when I get back. Just a thought. Thanks, Trip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Whether you take a class with Clay Spencer or just buy his plans and build to the plans one advantage of the tire hammer is that all the engineering is done. I used the Kinyon book as a guideline for building an air hammer as most have. I had to design my hammer and there has been some modifying to optimize it. If you are unsure of your designbuild skills (Vice grip Cad as Grant use to call it) following the tire hammer plans will give you a working hammer that works quite well. It will also help your building skills if you decide you want a bigger air hammer or something else. I used a tire hammer yesterday at the OABA meeting while forging a part for a table we are making to donate for the ABANA conference. It was built as part of a Clay Spencer workshop. It worked well my only complaint was the bottom plate was warped up due to the welding on of the anvil and main upright. It was not bolted to the floor so it rocked a fair bit till someone stuck a shim under one side. If I were building one I would use a heavier bottom plate and maybe longer gussets and clamp it down while welding to help prevent the warping. Maybe even pre warp the plate the opposite direction using a torch. Of course bolting it to the floor with a piece of plywood between it and the floor would have solved the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KYBOY Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Im sure everyone has seen this video but its probably the best homemade helve hammer Ive seen at moving metal..Its heavily built all around with a large heavy anvil, 2 hp motor and super heavy flywheel(which is key)...I built a helve hammer a long time ago and it worked fine but I couldent find a heavy enough anvil so it suffered..Check this one out..http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzbmX9ZbD3w Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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