Ridgewayforge Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I recently got a handful of old factory cut nails from my workplace (previously they were used in a barn). I thought they'd be great for forging little hooks to sell, but boy was I wrong! Perhaps someone has some information about these things, but the old cut nails didn't do well at all. I've read a bit about them on this website: http://www.appaltree.net/aba/nails.htm, but couldn't figure out why they weren't good raw material for forging. First off, they just crumbled when I hit them. They acted like they were hot short, and that perplexed me. Shouldn't these be mild steel, or am I dealing with a different metal altogether? Second, they split right down the center. Does anyone have information regarding old cut nails from ~1875 and later? They were taken from some chestnut beams. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 If they are splitting they may well be wrought Iron. Try working them really hot, like forge welding hot. Some wrought is just miserable stuff to forge most of it needs to be forged really hot, it will split and sometimes fall apart when forged too cold. The positive part is it will weld back together MUCH easier than mild steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Not to mention that nails were generally the *cheapest* metal not the best so they could be hot short even if they were steel and not WI! Did you spark test them? WI is fairly distinctive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 A lot of cut nails are higher carbon, try forging at a lower temperature. This does apply to modern cut nails more than nails from antiquity. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewayforge Posted March 28, 2012 Author Share Posted March 28, 2012 I'll try spark testing them to see if they're WI or some other metal. Phil, becuase of the Chestnut blight that started killing trees around the turn of the century, I'd say these nails are no younger than 1910, and I'd imagine they're a bit older than that. I'll spark test, but I don't know if they'd use carbon steel back then. Also, I've got some other hardware from the same batch-some hinge-pintles and a huge staple- I'll try them, too. One has evidence of being forge welded (which is rather cool to see, from so long ago) I'll try to get some pictures soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Chambers Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Agree with Phil here, they were made to be hard so they could penetrate into very hard mediums without bending so they would have a much higher carbon content then a basic nail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Modern cut nails are about 1040 or so and are hardened... they are used for nailing into concrete and masonry. If it is from a chestnut beam it could very well be a handmade nail. I have made quite a few things from the modern cut nails but I prefer to start with rod stock now. The paucity of mass and the Easter egg hunt through the forge coals gets to be a drag after while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 The Treemont Cut Nail Co. still makes cut nails, see the last question in their FAQs as to what type of steel go into what nails. http://www.tremontnail.com/faqs.htm I've used a selection of their nails on various projects and haven't found them to be any different in terms of hardness/toughness than medium C modern nails. Given the age of the beam and your description, I would guess that they are low grade wrought iron nails. Very common for the time period. A tip for anyone dealing with old cut nails in beams (from 10 years experience as a historic timber frame renovator)- If you need to pull a stubborn cut nail, give it one sharp blow deeper into the wood, and then go after it with your cat's paw/ nail puller. The blow will break free the rust and slightly expand the wood, and the nails will pull out much more easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 The thing about nails in a beam is the nail could have been put in at any time after the beam was made. That said, they may well be wrought, and from early in the life of the beam. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I once got pulled into a viking boat reconstruction venture as they were having trouble annealing their tremont nails. I knew a couple of tricks to do that and ended up as a resource on the project for traditional woodworking too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
small potatoes Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 An interesting aside on the nail topic, those of you who got through Moby Dick might recall that Ahab had the ship's smith forge him a harpoon out of horse shoe nail clippings. They both agreed that this was the very best iron. From my very limited experience in shoeing a horse, unless they were using much longer nails in the 1850s, the clippings are pretty small bits to be forging together into a harpoon head. Sounds like one very patient smith. I assume, though I might be wrong, that horse shoe nails by that date were cut nails. For my two cents on the subject, though I wouldn't wager more than a donut on it, I'm going with the WI speculation for your nails. WI manufacturing was still going strong at that point in time, and industry tends to stick with the tried and true. Could be totally wrong though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 There was a belief that the hammering of the shoe on the roads "improved" the metal. Of course as I recall he donated his razors for the edge material. If you look at the damascus barreled guns from that period they often used quite small stock as starting material to get fine patterning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junksmith Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Rather than trying to forge them, maybe you could clean them up and braze them together in interesting shapes. I sell tons of these little stars at Christmas time for $5 apiece. Just make sure you anneal the one you want to drill a hole in (heat the area to red with the torch & leave to cool after your brazing is done). Like everybody says, they are often hardened and will kill your drill bits otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junksmith Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 Darn! Can't get the pic to upload! sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhw Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 This might help you sleep:Wells, Tom 1998 Nail Chronology: The Use of Technologically Derived Features. Historical Archaeology 32(2):78-99. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewayforge Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 Tom, I searched but could not find the exact book you mentioned. Is there a link you could direct me to? I did a spark test today, and yes indeed they are wrought iron, so far as I can tell. They match up with the long streaks with very slight bulbs on the ends of the streaks. Also, I find that they are not nearly as rusted as any of my other metal, which seems an indication of WI, since it rusts slower than other metals. Junksmith, I'd love to see those pictures! We'll see what I can get done with them. I'll probably keep getting batches of them from time to time, but we'll see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 http://www.sha.org/publications/SHA_volume_indices/indices.cfm " Historical Archaeology (ISSN 0440-9213) is the scholarly journal of The Society for Historical Archaeology. The quarterly journal is a benefit of SHA membership. Historical Archaeology is published and distributed on or about 15 March, 15 June, 15 October, and 15 December. " Abstract: "Tom Wells Nail Chronology: The Use of Technologically Derived Features ABSTRACT: A technology-based nail chronology is presented. This chronology is derived from a topology based on a combination of general information about the historical developments of the technology applied by the nail manufacturing industry and the periods of actual use for each of twelve basic nail types presently identified as having been used in Louisiana. The author believes that the approach used to establish the Louisiana Nail Chronology can also be used to establish accurate nail chronologies in other regions." Easy to find as a Journal rather than a book...You can probably buy a copy from that website too under publications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewayforge Posted March 30, 2012 Author Share Posted March 30, 2012 I've finally got a picture of one of the nails. They're all largely the same as this one, except for a few odd smaller bits. I'll make sure to use these well- old nails sure are interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Looks like a factory made cut nail to me---but remember they started doing those before the mid 1800's and so real WI is still a possibility! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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