metal99 Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Hey everybody! I have a couple questions about a Trenton anvil that I bought from my uncle. He bought the anvil from an auction and nobody wanted to bid on it because it had a broken off base. So being the guy my uncle is he bought it and another solid cast sweedish anvil for $165.00 He knew that somebody would be able to use it the way it was or would have a way to fix it. He told me about the broken Trenton and offered it to me for 40 dollars. I have been looking for an anvil for a couple years now and honestly have had no luck at all. Hauling scrap is big where I live so I'm sure thats where most of them ended up. I am very happy with this anvil, the face is in amazing shape. First question - The base is broken off of the main body of the anvil. It is a cast iron base with a solid wrot body and tool steel face. Is there a sure fire way to repair a broken off base? Second question - Can somebody with the AIA book look up the serial number for me please? The serial number is A8343 U.S.A made Trenton it has an H on one of the feet, an R underneath by the hardy hole. When looking at the Trenton stamp inside the diamond from top to bottom it says Trenton, Solid wrot U.S.A. and 98. I would really apreciate any info on the anvil. Thanks in advance!!! Julius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Hey Julius, Your anvil was made in 1899 by the Columbus Forge and Iron Company in Columbus, Ohio. I also have an 1899 Trenton. The later Trentons had the tops arc welded to the base at the factory, so assuming the welder of your anvil was relatively competent, yours will probably stand up to years of use. I have found anvils relatively easy to find in Saskatchewan. They are quite common at farm auctions around here. Do you know which auction he bought the anvils at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal99 Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 Thanks alot for the fast reply!!! I'm not sure what auction he bought it at, He did tell me but I cant remember for sure it was just the past summer. I would have to ask him. I kinda figured it was going to be an 1899 or 1900 because I did read that the serail numbers from 0-4000 were from 1898. Honestly I have been looking for an anvil and asking around for about 2 years or so. I dont go to any auctions so that might be the problem lol. My dads family has been hauling scrap for years and they all said that they have probably scrapped a retirements worth of anvils over the years. When I told them what a decent anvil is selling for they were less then happy. Do you thik I should just get the base arc welded back on then? I would have to sand blast the mating faces because they are pretty rusty. Whats a good way to "restore" the finish on an old anvil like this? I like that old "black" steel look. Julius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 A knotted wire cup brush on an angle grinder will clean off the rust. Then wipe the anvil down with some boiled linseed oil on a rag. This will leave a nice finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal99 Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 Thats pretty straight forward i'll have to give it a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 So the base and the top have indeed parted each others' company? (satisfy my morbid curiosity and post a pic please) What kind of equipment do you have available? If you have a larger stick welder I would do a full penetration weld by first blocking the weld up with a rod and welding it in, then doing a multipass weld to fill like in this thread for a replate of a face. Pay attention to the temperature of the face so you don't need to heat treat the face. The anvil will be good as new after this, and ring like a church bell! Since the body will probably grow 1/2 inch the ring may increase. If this is too over-the-top because of the effort, do a deep chamfer all the way around and do a deep penetration weld This can be done with a smaller wire-feed welder, even one with a low duty cycle, but plan on doing multiple passes as you want a good solid bead 1/2 inch deep or deeper. The anvil may sound different after this since the inside will not have been welded. Lastly you can clamp the halves together by cleaning the surfaces, carefully measuring and drilling and tapping in some bolts for brackets. This is quick and relatively easy with minimal cost in equipment. It is also temporary, so you can weld it up at a later date. For a hobbiest this will be plenty strong. I would use at least four 1x1/4 straps with 1/2 inch bolts. Accurate hole location is easy - drill and tap one side, fasten the strap, then drill and tap the other side in place. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 In the 2nd picture it looks as though it has already been welded back together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Note that Trentons did NOT have a cast iron base they were cast steel. Makes a big difference when welding! Not as good a grade of steel as the tops but still steel. Is there a local VoTech school where you might get it welded up as a class project? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 In the 2nd picture it looks as though it has already been welded back together. They are attached together in that picture. Are they just stacked? Is it welded? If it is welded, why do more to it at this time? What is the extent of the damage? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewed Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 It would be a monster job, but could you drill up from the bottom and then tread and bolt that way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal99 Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 Note that Trentons did NOT have a cast iron base they were cast steel. Makes a big difference when welding! Not as good a grade of steel as the tops but still steel. Is there a local VoTech school where you might get it welded up as a class project? Not sure if I want it welded anymore because of the chances of loosing the temper on the face. They are attached together in that picture. Are they just stacked? Is it welded? If it is welded, why do more to it at this time? What is the extent of the damage? Phil No man there not attached together, the top is just sitting on the base. It has some remains of arc welds on the base but as Sask Mark stated above they did this at the factory. It would be a monster job, but could you drill up from the bottom and then tread and bolt that way? I think that exactly what I'm going to do, I'm going to drill out the base and tap the top so I can bolt it all together and glue it at the same time with some jb weld. Sorry I dont have any pics of them appart right now, the anvil is at work but I will get some posted on monday. Thanks for all the help you guys. Its nice to be part of a forum like this with so many nice people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal99 Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 I have found anvils relatively easy to find in Saskatchewan. They are quite common at farm auctions around here. Do you know which auction he bought the anvils at? Hey Mark, I found out what auction it was. It was the Klien estate sale just east of Hepburn sk. Not sure on the date tho but I believe it was last summer. I have found some anvils but there pretty pricy. There are some on kijiji right now for around 5 dollars a pound and highter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 The most I have paid for an anvil was $3.20/pound for my very nice 102 pound Trenton at an auction around 4 years ago. Most of them I have paid $0.50-1.50/pound (combination of auctions and garage sales and asking around). However, you won't find very many anvils larger than 150 pounds around here (if that's what you're looking for). I bought my 450 pound Peter Wright in Ontario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Not sure if I want it welded anymore because of the chances of loosing the temper on the face. No man there not attached together, the top is just sitting on the base. It has some remains of arc welds on the base but as Sask Mark stated above they did this at the factory. I think that exactly what I'm going to do, I'm going to drill out the base and tap the top so I can bolt it all together and glue it at the same time with some jb weld. Sorry I dont have any pics of them appart right now, the anvil is at work but I will get some posted on monday. Thanks for all the help you guys. Its nice to be part of a forum like this with so many nice people. I would personally arc weld them together. Quick, relatively easy and effective. That's how they used to build the later Trentons. There is a member of the blacksmith guild in Saskatoon that owns a tool-making business in Hague. He would probably be able to give you some good guidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal99 Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 I would personally arc weld them together. Quick, relatively easy and effective. That's how they used to build the later Trentons. There is a member of the blacksmith guild in Saskatoon that owns a tool-making business in Hague. He would probably be able to give you some good guidance. I understand that they were welded together in the factory but I'm just scared of messing up the temper of the face. Where it broke off is only 1/16" above one of the stamps and I really didnt want to mess them up. I think I might know who your talking about in Hague but I cant remember his name. My dad has a lot of friends from around there and a few friends on mine are from Hague. Another reason I want to stay away from welding them together is the fact that I will have an empty space in between. At least with the jb weld in there it will have full contact with the base and the bolt will help prevent the glue from seperating. At least I can give that a shot and if it fails I can still have it welded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Sorry, I must have misunderstood you. Is it broken at the waist, or is the face plate broken off, or is it broken somewhere else? If it is broken at the waist I wouldn't be too worried about arc welding as there's still a lot of metal to heat by arc welding in the top half of the anvil before the temperature of the faceplate gets hot enough to compromise the temper. If it's broken at the faceplate, that's a whole different challenge... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal99 Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Its broken at the smallest part of the waist. I'll think about it for sure but at least with glue I can re do it. I will get a better picture of it posted on monday. I shouldnt have had them stacked up like that when I took the pictures but at the same time I didnt know I was going to come across the anvil section on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Wet rags on the face will protect the temper just fine. Keep the rags wet and all will be good. The face can tolerate more heat that that though. You can always take more pictures... Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Phil, perhaps a few pictures of your welding experience would be nice and some essay of your experience personally with wet rags and heat sink. Also your experience with stack welds. Here are a few pictures of my welding. There will be many of course that have better skills than mine. I have a couple of pictures of my stack welding somewhere if you wish. Thomas of course makes the most important point and suggestions but Marks point is indeed well taken. A waist weld is much different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal99 Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Wet rags on the face will protect the temper just fine. Keep the rags wet and all will be good. The face can tolerate more heat that that though. You can always take more pictures... Phil So you dont have to pre-heat the anvil to weld it? I'm a welder or sorts but nothing more then sheet metal and plastic :) I dont want to weld it with the little mig welders we have here. I'll ask around about a good stick welder. So you dont need special rods to weld them together? I havent heard of cast steel so thats why i'm asking. I know for cast iron you need different rods right? I will get some pictures of it tomorrow and put them up. The big reason why I want to glue and bolt it is because if I use the adhesive we have at work its rated for 10000 psi breaking point and although a weld is stronger you have less area welded then would be glued. Unless a full penatration weld has been done but honestly thats beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sask Mark Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 You would only need to preheat/post heat if you are welding around the face plate. The heating from the welding would heat up the higher carbon steel face plate, then it runs the risk of quenching quickly and becoming brittle and/or cracking around the weld (this is the heat affected zone). Thomas Powers has written a good description of this process before. If I can find it I will post a link. The rest of the anvil is constructed on low enough carbon steel and/or wrought iron that it doesn't run the risk of becoming hard/brittle due to heating. Junior Strasil (has successfully repaired many anvils in the past) recommended I use 7018 rods for the repair of the horn on one of my anvils. The repairs have held up well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Good cleaning first, grinding a good v notch in both halves, mild heating with a O/A torch, then clamping. Tack weld all corners, then weld multiple passes. Good technique is vital here. If you are not a good welder, find someone who is. Stick welding, or flux cored MIG is how I would go. Then slow cooling of the weld area. Wet rags will keep the face cool. The rest of the anvil body will absorb the heat. Stay away from glue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal99 Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 Good cleaning first, grinding a good v notch in both halves, mild heating with a O/A torch, then clamping. Tack weld all corners, then weld multiple passes. Good technique is vital here. If you are not a good welder, find someone who is. Stick welding, or flux cored MIG is how I would go. Then slow cooling of the weld area. Wet rags will keep the face cool. The rest of the anvil body will absorb the heat. Stay away from glue! Hmm, I can weld no problem with a mig, I have never stick welded before. How many amps do you think it would take with a mig? I have access to a 200 amp mig its not flux core and only has .023 wire so I'm asuming that its not going to be a good choice for the job right? Just tickle my fancy here. . . why no glue? lol Its honestly VERY strong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Steve we share a common concern: And I am sure it will remain here long after I am gone. Quite simply the only requirement for anyone to post on here is to be a member and able to type into a box marked replies. There are no other requirements. If you have never ever done what you are speaking of, or if you have never even seen or heard of it done you may post and answer along with all of those great answers that come along as each new question is posted. As I go through life I h ave a question I ask myself each and every day and mostly concerned with wot I am doing that is different or new to me. "If I do this wot is the worst thing that can happen?" If I apply that question to those that wish to see their name in here even in areas that they at times have no experience I can honestly say that almost everytime there is no risk to them at all. and in face most of the time there is no safety risk to anyone that takes their advice. Whe the safety part is involved there is always a groundswell of replies to take care of that. There is a side efefdt that can occur and it is simply that when folks skilled in these areas see those replies posted it is obvious aboiut the lack of depth behind it. One good side of these answers is that those posting at times are really good at research and post links that may help with the question. And that skil really helps those new folks thqta do not know how to research or do not wish to do the search. So I guess we agree in some kind of way here. but really just wanted to see my name in print! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Metal99, I would indeed say that your fancy has been tickled. You have been given specific instructions by 2 competent welders. Sorry if I sound harsh but give it a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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