Questions about Damascus and Oil quenching

[Outsider_Looking_In]

Hi all,

I should start out by saying that I have not yet put hammer to metal, but I am currently hunting for parts to make a brake drum forge and a rudimentary anvil. But I can't stop my brain from designing and I have a few questions for a small piece I would like to make for my girlfrind as a graduation gift.

The main question is this: Is it possible to forge weld both oil quenched and plain metal together without losing the finish?

I am hoping to make a small necklace with a very simple twist pattern Damascus and I really like the idea of the contrast between blued and polished metal. I do not know if this is possible.

I was wondering if anyone could recommend a book or give a few pointers to help me out.

[Francis Trez Cole]

http://atar.com/joomla/

slamander armory Jim Hrisoulas has three great books on the subject. they were very helpful to me when I started out. I do not have any idea how much experiences you have but you need to learn how to walk before you can run

[MattBower]

Not sure I understand your question. Steel generally needs to be clean and free of finishes before it is forge welded. After welding and patterning, it is acid etched in order to improve the visibility of the pattern. In order to show a good, bold pattern, the steels used in piece have to be chosen for their etching characteristics. Steels high in manganese tend to etch black. Steels high in chromium tend to etch bright. Steels that aren't particlarly high in either one tend to fall somewhere in between.

[ThomasPowers]

You can forge weld wildly differing alloys together---if you are good. Etching and patination take place *after* the welding and forming.

Having someone who knows how run you through your first couple of billets should save you 6 months off of trying to learn it on your own.

How many years till she graduates?

[MattBower]

Aww, c'mon, Thomas. It doesn't necessarily have to take years to do a simple PW piece, particularly if he gets some help! :rolleyes:

[ThomasPowers]

Didn't say years; but a hobbyist could easily spend 6 months getting it down where 1 Saturday doing say 4 billets with someone who knows and can teach will have them well on the way and they can continue on their own.

The years comment was referring that it's not a good idea to decide to do a complex project well beyond one's skillset with a short time limit....

For a one off I walked a 15 year old through doing a billet at an SCA event as he had read *good* information and was asking all the right answers and so I showed him how to do the first weld up a 25 layer billet of bandsaw blade and pallet strapping and then with parental permission and PPE, had him do the next weld---and then gave it to him to continue with at home.

[Outsider_Looking_In]

sorry that I haven't responded to any of these questions, I have been swamped with Uni work.

she graduates in a couple of months :P

I am currently saving all my pennies to attend one of Owen Bush's courses, or organising a one-on-one session, to learn some of the basic skills. And I do realise the Damascus is a complex and time consuming project, but I want to make her something unique and special to say congratulations and I am making a deliberate effort to make the design as simple as possible. I have sketches if you would like to see what I have in mind ^_^

[ThomasPowers]

Sure we always like to *see* stuff!

[Harmless Dave]

I found that "Backyard Blacksmithing" by Loreli Simms to be very clear and helpful when I started.

[Frank Turley]

.
The pattern welders can feel free to correct me, but my old friend, Jim Fleming, told me that he used to weld O1 to mild steel for his knives, and he got good contrast. In Britain, I believe that O1 may be termed oil hardening 'Silver Steel,' so-called because it is delivered scale free. The mild steel would be your everyday low carbon steel. O1 is a tool steel, but I don't think that would be important if you're making jewelry. Just don't harden it in a quenchant.

[Nick Rossi]

For the best contrast you need a steel with an appreciable amount of nickel. Steel like 15n20, L6 and 203e are best for the "bright" part of a pattern weld. For the deep "black" 1095, 1084, 1075, 01, W1 and W2 are great. Mild steel etches out a gray color.

Keep in mind that the contrast will be greatest on a hardened material. I don't know why, but martensitic steel etches blacker than than unhardened stuff.

I use 15n20/1084 in pretty much everything. Balances out to .79% carbon, easy to heat treat and very easy to move around with the hammer.

If you can have a pro make a billet with you or take a class, you can shave a significant amount of time off the learning curve.

[Ric Furrer]

Outsider,
You may wish to stop in and see Owen Bush
http://www.owenbush.co.uk/
He is in Kent.
I'm sure he can help out with instruction or material he has made or time in the shop for you to do the work.

Ric

[McIntyre Knives]

G'day Outsider

I would have to agree with Thomas and his comment on time. With no forge and only a few months to go you may want to look at making the billet with someone else or buying some commercial Damascus. Barring that, give her a drawing and a promise and then give yourself the time you need to make her something you will be happy with. Damascus is a whole world of alloy compatibility, heat treating, etching, patination techniques, and sourcing the materials you need to do the job. Once those decisions are made, then you have to build it. If anything goes wrong, you chalk it up to experience, chuck it in the bucket, then you build it again. A few months is not a long time when you are starting from ground zero.

Righto enough doom and gloom this is what i would do if I was making it.

1. 1084 and 15n20, If you want to do a small twist I would leave to count pretty low say 50 to 75 layers. What looks good in a blade can get lost in small items, you want people to see it's Damascus. I would buy the material so I know what it is. Etching is a huge topic, safest is probably Ferric Chloride mixed three to one with water. To get the crispest etch you will need to harden and temper the piece, it will also etch faster and deeper. I would finish to about 1000 to 1500 grit prior to etch. After etching you can neutralize and cut the high spots back with 2000 grit and leave the 1084 oxide as your contrast. You can also cold blue, have a gunsmith hot blue, or have it Phosphate coated and once again cut back the high spots with 2000 grit.

2. Pure Nickle and Mild steel best contrast out there. I have always found pure nickle easy to weld in gas, it twists ugly though unless you keep it really hot. Expect lots of weld shear until you know the limitations due to differential stretch rate. Using mild and pure nickle lets you skip heat treating and etching. Mirror polish the whole thing and then go for it. You can heat color it, hot blue it, cold blue it, Manganese Phosphate, or rust brown, none of which will touch the nickle. Like all patinas they will have a wear factor but you can just recolor it when needed(depending on your mountings)

Have fun

Cheers
Shawn

[Outsider_Looking_In]

Honistly, what I have in mind isn't really Damascus but it was close enough that it was easier to say that than having to explain. I'll be right back, off to redo some sketches and scan them in

[Outsider_Looking_In]

Right, description time. 1,2 and 3 are just the general shape of the piece that I have in mind. Almost certainly not the final product but just something to help visualize what I have in mind. That said, I really like the shape of 3.

The other doodles are the kind of layering that I am hoping to achieve. All the designs are very low layer count (with design 5 only having 3 layers) to emphasis the effect and the contrast between the been the bright and the darken steel. 4 and 7 are simple twist Damascus but 8 is a little more complex. The idea is that a bar of twisted Damascus is cut in half, with one of the half being turned over and the layers deliberately mis-aligned (or possibly aligned depending on my mood at the time) to produce a arrow pattern.

I have NO experience with Damascus and therefore I have no idea if any of these ideas are practical. What are your thoughts?

[ThomasPowers]

I do #8 by taking two bars and twisting them in opposite directions (one clockwise, one anticlockwise) and then welding them together.

[MattBower]

I am not a guru by any means, but I'm pretty sure #8 only works with two bars of opposite twist. At first glance it seems like bending a twisted bar back on itself (or cutting it in half and doing the same) should work, but if you really think about it, it won't. Some of the swordsmiths who like to do Norse stuff might chime in on that.

[McIntyre Knives]

You have to twist two bars one clockwise one counterclockwise. If you bend it in half or turn one around they still go the same direction. It is like the old trick of sending the apprentice off to cut the heads off of some bolts and welding them on the other end to make a left hand thread. It works in your head but not in reality. If you are working with a small bar you can grab it in the middle in the vise and twist one way then spin it and twist the other. You wont waste as much untwisted material as cutting in half first.

[firefarm39]

Number 8 looks similiar to a feather pattern, in which a simple layered billet is sliced almost in half in a press, then welded back together again. The knife that does the slicing drags the layers down somewhat and the result (sometimes :) ) is a beautiful feathery looking pattern. Try googling 'feather-pattern damascus'. This is probably not a first-time technique, and does require some significant equipment.

[ThomasPowers]

by welding two oppositely twisted bars together you get a billet with chevrons going down the bar on one side and up the bar on the other

[Frosty]

You're making a piece of jewelry, not a weapon so do Mokume Gane instead. I don't know what the coinage is in the UK but in the states quarters make nicely contrasting copper/nickle mokume, add a Canadian quarter for a higher % nickle and it can be striking. You don't need a "forge", anvil or special tools. A couple fire bricks and a plumber's propane torch do just fine. Oh yeah, a smallish block of steel to hammer on so I guess you DO need an anvil. A little borax helps but isn't essential.

The process is to clean excess gunk off the coins and clamp them together tightly, then heat the billet to sweating temperature. Sweating temp will display as a wet look at a medium high orange heat. Leave it soak at sweating temp for a while to make sure the billet is heated to the center. Remove the clamp and gently hammer the billet layers together. It's a good idea to reclamp and heat again to make sure the difusion welds are solid.

After the difusion weld is completed you can heat and hammer the billet like it's one solid piece of metal, it is. The showy part of the process is how you expose the different layers, you can grind grooves in the billet and hammer it flat or hammer texture in it and grind it flat. You can of course make a twist and counter twist and weld them together for the chevron pattern, sky's the limit.

You can of course use metals other than coins, silver and copper make nice contrast but do NOT try making mokume Gane with Silver and Brass, this makes "silver solder" which has a MUCH lower melting temperature, it'll turn into a puddle as soon as fusion occures.

Send pics please, we love pics!

Frosty The Lucky.

[Outsider_Looking_In]

I found the Mokume Gane forum last week and have been spending a lot of time there (and on youtube) doing research. It looks like a lot of fun and a huge range of effects and colours can be achieved. But I am a humble student who can't afford any fancy materials to play with, and I can't use pennies as they are currently being saved to pay for a teaching session with Owen Bush.

But I will keep saving and keep reading and who knows what will happen. And there will certainly be photos