ironman186 Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Hello wondered if anyone could help me with an idea ,I had about making closed dies for fire place tool handles , they would be water jet cut , my question is would they lengthen in the die , and need to be blanked out a bit first , any ideas . Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Welcome Ironman, Not enough info to go on for me.....Sketches or pictures would help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Hey macbruce, whose the guy behind the Foster Grants? Looks like your really putting the Zipmax thru it's paces! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Back when I bought my Kuhn there were a series of product sheets describing matched pairs of open forging dies . The implication was that they were a Kuhn product. I still have a few of those data sheets and although I never purchase a set it looks like a good idea that would apply to handles or balusters. The dies were identical top and bottom dies with the profile machined right across the die. When installed in the hammer with the features registered in alinement. The work piece was forged from the end of the die while rotating. This gave a uniformmly forged profile over the length of the die. My hammer and this literature came from Centaur Forge. Although I doubt that they have the dies available the concept seems a lot more feasable than the use of closed dies on a power hammer. This die concept has to be old technology. I would post pictures except for possible copyright infringements . Maybe Glenn can weigh in on that issue. I hope that my description of these die sets are sufficient to get the idea across. Happy forging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Hey macbruce, whose the guy behind the Foster Grants? The real unibomber....lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I will take a stab at this. If I understand you right. You have a top and a bottom die with a shape cut between the two. If this is the case you will have to relieve the sides and sharpe edges of the die to allow the material to move. Most of the dies I have made requires you to turn your part 90 degrees and hit it again repeatedly to true up the part. With these type of dies I always will start with square stock. Think of your steel as clay it will elongate in your die. The material has to go somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Hello wondered if anyone could help me with an idea ,I had about making closed dies for fire place tool handles , they would be water jet cut , my question is would they lengthen in the die , and need to be blanked out a bit first , any ideas . Thanks Most any type of die that imprints the metal or forms/shapes the metal in any way is going to lengthen the bar. (If you displace metal, it's got to go somewhere.) How much it changes the bar depends on the die type. A die that simply imprints a chisel line in the steel is not displacing much metal and will not create a significant change in the stock. If you are making a ball in the center of a bar with the bar tapered down to the ball on either side, your stock will lengthen. It sounds like you are all about production. You want to turn out fireplace handles fast. My best advise is to make the dies and do a test piece. If they create an unacceptable change in stock, change your design and send the "useless" dies to me! :D Best of luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 "Alpenschmiede Special Die Set with Stock Guide". These are what I was talking about and Centaur is closing out these dies. Their stock may not include the die configuration that you want but you will at least be able to see how Kuhn made their dies. If they don't have what you want you might consider purchasing a set of flat dies to make your own custom die from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shane Stegmeier Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I would not try to use a closed die on a small hammer. I thought the kuhn dies were neat looking, but figured there were issues with learning to get the most out of them. Like needing to leave a thicker blank isolated where you were going to run the dies... IF you get the volume worked out right, you could do all kinds of interesting things. You can also use a multi step spring die. Clifton Ralph had a little 4step clapper for making bloomer buttons. There was a sissor cutter on the end, then a taper tool, the a ball swage, then a narrow round swage for cleaning up the shank on the hook for the bloomer button. If I remember correctly. It might have had one or two more tools built in to it, i think he could take the ball and slip it into the die and make a nicely domed button without nicking the shank of the hook. I think I remember that he would use the ball swage,and the the taper tool to set up to make a leaf finial where you would punch the holes to hang the hook on the wall. He would swing the clapper die out of the way and pull the leaf with the power hammer. LOVELY little clapper die set up. And you could do all kinds of things with tha die set, not just pump out handles. Austerity measures... IT's not just for Greece anymore. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 The easy home smithy method is to forge the item you want to produce then heat the die blanks and use the finished item to forge the new dies. Another thing to consider is a closed die may not be necessary, a bottom die and a shaped top may do the deed. All this depends on the details we don't know of course but what the hey. Frosty The Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 When I am developing a set of dies like this I bandsaw, rasp and what ever else I have to do to get a profile in a pine 4x4 then I rip it in half length ways. Now I have a matching set of dies to work a piece of clay with to work out such things as stock size, shape and what preforming might be needed. I usualy scrap about 3 sets before I get something I can use as a patteren for the steel die Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 With a lot of the tooling I use I need to make a setup die that is used before the finished die which is what I think you are talking about. Often the setup die is more work than the finish die although few people would appriciate that. If you have the finish die in hand I would try it and see what you get, then I would hand forge setups to put in the finish die when you find the right setup make a die that will make that. That is backwards to how you should do it, the normal way would be to have an element you are making by say hand, then make dies that make each step you want to forge under the hammer. I think this is what Finn mentioned only it was a complex spring tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironman186 Posted March 3, 2012 Author Share Posted March 3, 2012 I wanted to thank everyone for there answers to my question about air hammer swages . I appreciate the feedback . I have'nt had time to do much with them yet but plan to soon . Ill let you know the results . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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