beth Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 can any of you lot tell me how this piece of chain was made ? obviously it is old and worn but you can see how it is doubled up and lies very flat - it would have been forge welded and id love to know how it was made so the links fit each other so well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 To get the lay flat on a single (standard) course of chain,just weld a chain as usual and twist each link a little so the bar is more S than straight (looking along the length of the link), then hammer flat to dress it up. simple, as long as the welds are good of course I've done that with small commercial chain to good effect. As to the double lnking, I guess you just feed each new link through the last two rather than the last one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 thanks dave - you make that sound very simple if i could fire weld properly i would try it - do you mena you have done that to sections of ordinarily lying chain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 These had a number of different designs. Dave is right in his explaination of those two chains. But there is another similar style that is much tighter. I have one hanging on a forged nail in my shop to show students what used to be done. It's known as a horse breast chain as it went across the chest of a horse when pulling something. The construction was done to help prevent the horses' hair from being pulled. The end of my chain was broken so I heated it up and un-twisted it. It is actually a chain within a chain. I tried to draw it for you but it's hard to show. After that it is then twisted and flattened. One must remember that these were done in specialty shops, not the normal blacksmith shop. Some shops only did tools, some long rifles, some chain, etc. My chain is made of 1/8" stock and is all forge welded. They actually had a station right on the forge to produce this chain. It included a small anvil, hardie and bick. It was on the forge in order to be faster to get it from the fire to an anvil for welding. That way heat wasn't lost turning and stepping to the large anvil. There was usually a measuring stop so all pieces were cut exactly the same length. Who ever made these did it all day long. That was their job. I have a small book on chain making in England and was surprised that they made chain there by hand until 1968. Also all chain from 3/8" stock and under were made by women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 randy thanks that sounds very interesting - i wonder if you have a photo of your chain? this piece was used with horses,and obviously is very worn and would have been a lot tighter when the links were thicker - it is very old! im not sure its just put next loop through last two - it looks different to that - this is the sort of thing that makes my brain ache and i cant work it out at all!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Beth - it's not to hard to see when you look at how the links are laying out - each link is roughly twice as long as a single chain. try making one with some clay or bread dough - hummm I like the bread dough idea - Hey Make one then bake it so we can see it!!!! then you can eat it. With the dough though you will have to overexagerate the links by making them very thin and a bit longer so it will rise when baking.........waiting............... :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Beth If you want to learn to forge weld well chain is very good practice. its easy because the weld scarfs wont move around on you. It alows you to focus on gettng a proper heat first with out having to fumble with two bars. later on you can move up to more complex types of welds. This is how I learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 That type of chain in much smaller dimensions is a common design for jewelers. It is just as simple as it looks... the links are each made to the next to last previous link (instead of the last link). In jewelry work the twisting would all be done cold after the chain assembly is completed (the chain is stretched and twisted all at once). Then the chain would be flattened... jewelers might use a roller or hand hammer. I suspect that these would have been done similarly. Such chain is rarely made by hand today (or ANY other type of chain for that matter) but the handmade versions have a charm that is not acheived by the factory examples. Interestng info about the horse breast application! Thanks Randy! Many other variations are used in the jewelry craft... chains could be made denser by doubling each link... or by going back two links behind the last instead of one... you get the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Here are photos of my chain. In terms of scale, it is 35" long, and each toggle is 4 1/8" long. The link stock is a scant 3/16"D. There are two or more ways of making flat chain for the curb chains that fit in the horse's chin groove and which are part of the curb bridle bit. I suspect each iron link was brazed together with a blow pipe. The stock was baling wire size or smaller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Here are photos of my chain. In terms of scale, it is 35" long, and each toggle is 4 1/8" long. The link stock is a scant 3/16"D. There are two or more ways of making flat chain for the curb chains that fit in the horse's chin groove and which are part of the curb bridle bit. I suspect each iron link was brazed together with a blow pipe. The stock was baling wire size or smaller. Mr. Turley, I have that EXACT chain! same length, ends, everything! Just exactly was it used for? I'm thinking it's a trace chain. Cool chain no matter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Frank, Thomas, those chains are breast chains On some styles of draft harness. They go from a ring on 1 hame to a ring on the other hame. There is a ring that they go thru on the neck yoke which in turn holds the end of the wagon tounge up. It is also part of the steering and stopping mechanism. The toggles on the ends go thru a 1.2 inch ring end ways then turn side ways and can't pass back thru easy and fast to do and can be done with gloves on. This style chain was often used on mules under harsh conditions as leather would not hold up well with out alot of care. Thomas they were used in conjuction with trace chains instead of leather traces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 <p style="text-align: left; ">all so very beautiful and interesting - i have looked before at jewellery type chains, but more the "snake" chains which are done much like french knitting, all from one piece of "wire" , although there is a separate loop variant to that style too, which is rather gorgeous. it didnt cross my mind that chains used for animals would have decorative considerations - thats wonderful, i love when people almost decorate an animal, shows a certain kind of respect - g</p> <p style="text-align: left; ">does not happen in the uk in the same way as it used to, but you see it all the time in other countries, and i Like it! JK i REALLY like your bread idea - you should be a teacher - you have such mellow ideas! im going to make it - absolutely- a great learning aid !! and show you what it looks like. before i eat it. im suddenly finding the chain a very wonderful thing, thanks timothy - i will listen to you and try to improve my welding on a chain - it does make sense. not much time at my fire at the moment unfortuneately... </p> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peacock Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Beth, Not used as decoration. This style chain will slide very easily thru the rings as the mule moves side to side as they do the work. The twist makes it run flat the double link reduces the gap that the ring can catch in making it slide without hanging up. Get a ring and a standard chain run each chain thru the ring and compare them. When animals were used for hard work everything was about function and nothing about pretty. Now as we see animals used for pleasure some of us begin to see the beauty of the function of the past. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Frank, if you look at the center of the chain I think you will see more wear on the outside of the links. The links near the ends should have more wear on the inside where they hang thru the other link. I can't tell from the picture, I just thought it might be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I used to have a length of that chain too, I always wondered what it was all about! Thanks for the info folks.it'samazing the things you learn here Beth, yes I flatted/twisted some shop bought chain for a project a while back. I just thought it looked nice and it stopped the links getting all notted up when the chain was in a pile. The chain was quite small though, each link was about 3/4" long Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Thanks Phil! I had typed "breast chain" first then changed it to trace chain, I guess ya should always go with your first thought :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Here are the pictures of the breast chain I referred to earlier. Each shot is of opposite ends. The open link and chain are untouched and you can see how it transcends into the full twist and flattened. The other end is where I untwisted it to see the chain in chain construction before twisting and flattening. Look closely and you may be able to see the forge welds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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