David Einhorn Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 I have started construction on a side blast semi-portable forge. The forge is based upon a photograph in the U.S. Naval archives of a forge being used during the American Civil War on the monitor Lehigh. If there is interest, I will post progress with the eventual goal of turning the information into a blueprint for IFI. My guess is that the naval forge in the photograph was constructed based upon the experience of those making it, as forges on ships such as this is likely to be a standard item, but not a standardized item. To reverse engineer this type of forge I am using period documented information on a American Civil War Traveling Forge, a American Civil War portable Mountain Forge, as well as a photograph of a 20th century folding U.S. Army forge, and my 20th century semi-portable Buffalo forge. The photograph on the far left shows today's progress. The sides are only tacked together. The round hole is the back, and the other cutout is on one side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric sprado Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 Nice David. I just picked up an old cream can with the idea of poking a tuyere through it at using it as a portable side blast. I shoed for years with an old cavalry fold up forge and am going to use the blower from it for air. Interested in watching your progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Looks like a truly worthy project and an efficient design. Might I suggest forgoing the electric welding and using rivets instead. I have often been disappointed wile looking at historical reproductions and seeing inappropriate construction techniques used. It gives people the wrong ideas about what material culture and working conditions were at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Good point, I will do the best that I can. It will have a bellows and use, as much as possible and affordable, construction elements from the period Mountain Portable Forge. I can add riveted elements to the front, however so far I don't see any rivets showing in the photograph on the box, but I can still add them as there were likely rivets somewhere on the box. Some of the rivets in period plans show the heads of the rivets flush with the surface, with the holes countersunk. Add a little paint and the rivets become pretty much invisible. I will simply do the best that I can and provide the information that I can. Others are welcome to take the information and use more correct, better, or other techniques, sizes and adaptations as fits their needs and skill level. I do not claim to be a professional. If anyone, especially a professional such as yourself, would like to take over this project and provide a better set of plans, I really don't mind as I am just trying to help others have something affordable or as inspiration for their own adaptation. The description of making the forge's box pan will likely just say to make a box with a hole in the back and either with or without a cutout in the side or sides, by either folding and riveting, riveting, or whatever fits your need, materials at hand, tools and skills. Further information would provide what I used, the measurements that I used, and suggest a few of the other options including wood for the forge pan and supports.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 We regularly rivet work at our shop. Its not hard or expensive. Just lay out the holes and drill. Insert the rivet use a backing bar, anvil or steel block to back up the rivet and peen over the head. You could buy about 1000's of rivets for the cost of a welder. I find it is easier to train an employe to rivet solid joint than be a good welder. It is time consuming though but I feel in most cases the result is more attractive. As a professional I do not have the time to do many nonpaying projects though I have a wish list a mile long. I have participated in a very interesting civil war related project. In 2009-2010 we were sub-contracted to make the hardware for 4 reproductions of the "The Dictator" A 14" naval mortar. There were approximately 100 hand forged nuts bolts in the project. Plus some other bits and bobs. It was full scale and functional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Timothy, I appreciate your suggestions and your being polite about my short comings. When I thought of posting this I expected you to chime in and find fault, thank you for being polite about it and not calling me names this time. I know how to rivet, and I usually make my own. This like other projects I make, I am constructing using as best as possible the materials at hand, so as to be affordable to me. I would have to go out and purchase thinner steel so as to be able to fold it for riveting, and I just don't have the money to prioritize for that at the moment. I also don't have access to a bender for sheet metal, and don't have the money to pay someone to bend the corners for riveting. Yes I know how to use a bender and rivet, yes I could possibly jury-rig something to make the bend, but I won't. Believe it or not because of money and time constraint, yes I too have a life, I must take a few short cuts. My goal is to make something affordable that looks ok to most folks. I expect that if I mined the iron ore, smelted it, rolled it, cut and riveted it, you would still find shortcomings and make it very clear that you feel that I am incompetent, because that has been the nature of the history of our interactions. Yes, we all acknowledge you as a professional. Yes, you are probably 100 times better at this than myself. Thank you again for not calling me names this time. And no, I didn't expect you to take on the project. I only expected you to find lots of time to find fault again for the umpteenth time with my contribution as you have done in the past, but at least you are not calling me names this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I have no recolection of ever calling you names and if I have I am sorry, I know we don't see eye to eye on subjects and its fair to discuss different views. It is one of the points of a discussion forum. I am here to discuss metalwork. Not you personally, I apologize sincerely if I have made this personal in the past. You have published a book on civil war blacksmithing and put yourself forward as an authority on this topic. I am merely making a polite suggestion biased on my personal experience and observations of period metal work. You should view me as a potential collaborator not an adversary. Please do not take my comments personally. It is part of the roll that I play professionally to discuss the merits of various construction methods with my partner our workers and clients and have to defend my ideas as well. I am just calling it as i see it, rivets would be more appropriate than electric welding to hold the forge pan together. As for folded construction I can't see from the photos if it is bent up or held together with corner pieces riveted on. You had posed a larger photo that may have showed it is now gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 I never claimed to be "the expert", I simply published my notes to share them. I was spending too much time and money xeroxing and sending people information. As far as I can remember, you have yet to share, you only criticize. I explained twice why I am not riveting and you continue to complain. Either you don't read or you simply think that I am an idiot. In the *hours* that you have found time tonight to "collaborate" you could have built a pan in a fraction of that time, or drawn up plans on how you think such a forge should be done. If you want to have plans on IFI to build a side-blast forge then you do it, because I'm not going to do it. I give up. I don't need the aggravation. I don't need your collaboration as I know what short-cuts I am taking and what would have been the "perfect" way, had I the time, money and tools. You apparently have lots of time, so you provide the information to the people who need it. Whenever I try to help people I too often get criticize by those that "don't have the time" to do it themselves. That's another reason I put the information in a book, that way if someone is going to criticize me, they have to pay at least a token amount for the privilege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r smith Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Maybe some rivets for cosmetic purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I think you are taking this whole thing far too seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Woolsey Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I think it is very difficult to convey emotion through a forum such as this. As someone who is more on the "baby steps" in my education I sincerely hope that those who have many things to share will continue to put information out here for all to learn from. And add to. And yes, to criticize. This helps us all to get a feel for how we go about our personal journey with this awesome craft. Thanks to you, David,Tim, and Glen especially for sharing your time and knowledge so freely. Johnny Woolsey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Tim, you have spent years chasing people off the forum. I have to admit that you are getting more subtle about it. There are those of us that may not be professional but try to share our researches. Unfortunately there are those that don't share, but simply criticize what others are doing. You have spent many hours on this forum over the years posting your little digs, it would be better for the forum community if you as a skilled and knowledgeable professional spent some of that time putting together educational materials such as how-to items, and blue prints, and actually sharing information. Of course if you actually shared information, you would be making yourself vulnerable to armchair critics. However I promise to be one of those that thank you for the information and not one of the armchair critics. As far as rivets go, believe it or not the 19th century was not the stone age, and smiths took pride in their work. Where appropriate and especially for high-end items smiths took the time to use blind rivets and designed pieces so as to minimize how many rivets if any were visible. For the forge pan, by folding the sides so as to wrap around and be fastened at the back and bottom of the forge pan, the pan can be made so that no rivets are visible. The result would look the same as welded to the untrained eye, and possibly offend those that believe that visible rivets and sloppy work is the only authentic product and tools for historical presentations. Good examples of finishing can be seen in knives, sugar tongs, pipe tongs and other pre-20th century items where the higher end items were finished with countersunk rivets finished flat to the surface. Historically smiths also took pride in hiding their hammer marks to the point that modern people mistake their work as being machined. Removing hammer marks from your work is simply having the properly shaped hammer heads that don't leave marks, a clean flat anvil surface, and proper hammer technique. I highly recommend "Early American Wrought Iron" by Sonn, as well as other books on historical iron such as other books with titles of "Colonial Wrought Iron" by Plummer, "Antique Iron", and "Hooks, Rings, and Other Things". The modern smiths that I admire tend to hide their hammer marks and decorate the heads of their *visible* rivets so that the composition is esthetically more appealing. To make a rivet flush with the work simply countersink the hole, place a length of round iron in the hole, hammer flat as possible and file off any excess if any, and finish smooth. If you need any further help removing the steam-punk look from your work, I am sure that any of the amateur knife-makers on this forum could provide lots of information on doing attractive and decorative riveting. So in conclusion, it would be real nice if you would use your many hours of time that you spend on the forum providing and contributing to educational materials instead of leaning back in your chair and getting enjoyment of criticizing others and potentially chasing them off the forum. Sincere and best wishes as always, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 David, you are a wonder. I can`t for the life of me understand why you would let the opinions of people you`ve never even met influence your life so deeply. My unsolicited advice is to grow some skin buddy. If you want to build something build it, and feel free to build it in any manner you dang well please. Even if my projects don`t live up to my expectations (and mine are the only ones that truly matter) they will still teach me something. If you are kind enough to share what you learn with others so much the better. The only real concerns should be ones of personal safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Einhorn Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 Mainely, you are a wonder, why do you care how I feel? Your only concern should be for your own business. Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. Would a moderator please close this thread, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Normally I would ask all parties to site references. As this thread has strayed from being informative in the area of metalworking, I will close it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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