Big Peter W (and his friend!)

[nonjic]

I agree it is all realative, and everyones circumstances are different.... Just to head off topic for a bit. I was at a very well known blacksmiths shop in the UK a couple or 3 years ago. They were making a nice ornate wrought iron gate, about 42" high x 36" wide. It was top end stuff.

I asked the question and was told that the gate was heading out of the door for about £15k ($24k usd). I commented that it was crazy money for a small gate. I was (quite rightly) told it was not crazy money. The house it was going on the front of was worth several million. They wanted a nice gate so bought one. A couple of planks of wood and $10 bucks worth of hardware would have filled the gap at the end of their path. They will get pleasure from that gate every day. Wont do a thing different to the imaginary 2 planks of wood and $10 bucks of hardware!

anyhoo, I ramble. The P.W anvil in this thread will most likely end up on ebay in the states next year, dont know what it will make other than what someone wants to pay for it. Wont make you forge any better than that $24k gate will fill the gap in the wall, but it will bring someone pleasure for many years.

[eric sprado]

Looks good deal to me! Buying just what you want is a nice feeling.Shipping is a HUGE deal these days. I used to buy and sell quite a few anvils but driving a hundred miles each way these days sure adds to the price.

[ThomasPowers]

Well looking at it from an economics standpoint, I disagree.

When you go to an auction and you see stuff selling for more than the new price then the price in the stores is not the price but the price in the auction is?

Auction prices are only accurate when all the bidders have good information about the true state of the market. We wouldn't sell stuff by auction unless we felt like it was the best way to maximize our return. We don't buy stuff unless we believe we are getting a deal. It's all based on *information* (though the doctrine of perceived utility is making a splash in this area now...)

I had a friend who used to sell butted chain mail shirts at gun shows for 3 times the going price at SCA events---which was the "correct price": the hundreds sold at SCA events or the few sold at gun shows?

But is doesn't matter to me. I gave up on e-bay for smithing stuff when I learned I could find stuff local for way cheaper if I was willing to do the work of hunting it down. Generally even if you counted my time at what I'm paid for at work. Can't be in a hurry though and you have to be willing to talk to people.

[Fe-Wood]

Thomas-
This would be the fork in the road where we part company. I have found all kinds of great tools at ridiculously low prices at auctions. I can't even begin to list all the goodies. As with your approach, patience, knowledge and need are the factors to look at. I think the best deal I got from an auction, well there are many- but I will share this one. 2 welding tables 3/4"x2'x5' blancherd ground, 1 wood top table with 2 smith fuel savers,O/A regulators, hoses and a few other bits. $175.00

The correct price is based on knowledge and need. I buy tools at retail knowing if I had time, I could find it on fleabay or craigslist for way less. Sometimes the job can't afford to wait and the cost of time and travel is to high.

anyway- not wanting to get into a pi$$ing contest, I just think you are being narrow minded is all.

[Javan C.R. Dempsey]

I think all Thomas is arguing is that the capitalistic "value" and intrinsic "value" aren't the same things. We use the word as if it only has one meaning, but as with so many words in our meager language, it been highly subjugated.

Often, especially amongst this community, we associate an item's "value" with it's continued functionality and usefulness, and even though we place economic "value" on a tool based on that intrinsic usefulness, it's not the same thing. In fact, if it weren't for our community, the value of many pieces of old machinery would be inherently equal to scrap steel "value".

The idea that something's value is worth whatever someone will pay for it, is strictly economic, or capitalistic. I'd argue that a flea market chinese screw-driver that strips on the first twist isn't worth $0.05, but people will pay $2 or more for one to try and save money. Those are two completely different "values".


I saw a 450lb "Australian Workhorse" (Old World Anvils) that appeared to be unused sell for less than $2 a lb in the past few months on ebay. It was poorly described, and hard to realize what it was, but that's what it was. I didn't have any money at the time so I passed up on it.

That anvil, in the sense of "value"; that has us trying to save all old power hammers and other machinery from the scrapyard, is immensely higher than much of the "collection" crap we see on ebay, yet it fetched about 1/5 of it's retail price. It may have suffered from the vague listing, but does that really affect the intrinsic "value" of a tool? No, only the economic "value".


All of us that are in business for ourselves have charged "what the market would bear" at one time or another, and it's easy for us to justify our profiteering, that's the american dogma, but lets not forget that "value" and "value" aren't always the same thing.

[John McPherson]

I have gotten great stuff at auctions, flea markets, pawn shops, junk dealers and estate sales at pennies on the dollar. However, I have passed on 99.9% of what was offered, or stopped bidding when I reached my personal, pre-set mental limit. Many times, the opening bid is above that amount.

As Thomas says, the difference is knowledge: of relative values, retail values, and personal value-in-use. I limit myself to what is in my wallet or checking account surplus this month. I will not go into debt for a hobby item for myself. I would for something that I thought I could transport (in a Honda van) and turn over in a reasonable amount of time. And that puts me in direct competition with the dealers that attend.

I have a 336 lb Euroanvil. If I had the money, and wanted or needed the 400 pound anvil, I would have cheerfully paid the $1200 price, it was that nice. My rant was about 'auction hysteria' and the unknowing buyers paying top dollar for bogus anvils and RR track, and paying $45 for one pair of rusty tongs! For the whole lot, yes. For one, only if St. Francis himself made it.

[Boilerguy]

Said it one time will again ebay is just a sourse one of many in buying anvils for 3 years I have bought 3 on ebay one was a local pickup most local. why not use another sourse even if it don't work out very often. Got a 310# Hay Budden and stand for $350 not bad shape from a fellow who approched me at a auction. you know what they say about opinions

[monstermetal]

Well Thomas.... Your argument starts of "from an economics stand point" And then you contradict the laws of economics...

An auction sets the value for an item that day for those in attendance for that item.. On that particular day an item might be worth more to one of the attendees than its retail value. That items value has been established purely by what a person was willing to pay... .No price was set.... So truly the retail price of the item is now lower than is the actual value... The actual value being that which someone is willing to pay. Thats pure economics.... The person buying the item sets the value, not the person selling... That is always always always the case...

eBay is a great tool to set value... It has millions of people, not just a few who get to decide an items worth..... Just because you dont agree with them doesn't change the laws of economics, An item is worth exactly what someone is willing to pay, no more no less.... If someone pays it you can not argue value, its been established, it doesn't matter why they paid it, only that they did.