Guys,,,,,,,Is this stuff "Blacksmithing" or "Metalworking"..........??

[macbruce]

I saw some fancy iron scroll work on some very expensive clocks. My wife was rather impressed, but from 10 feet away it looked "wrong" and when I got just a little closer it was obvious why it looked wrong. Everything was plasma cut on a CNC machine! There were no individual components, all the edges were hard and sharp, the list is long what was "wrong". The salesperson said they were some of his best selling products in that price range. There was no argument that the frame was solid and well built, and to a different eye was aesthetically pleasing. I don't recall how it was labeled. It really was well done, but I have become biased, it was fabricated from machine cut parts. It it was made to look fabricated instead of trying to fake being forged I would have liked it better. Phil

I look at metal work with a jaundiced eye as well. One thing I can't stand or sometimes amuses me is I've seen antique dealers and high end decorators show off pieces that are labeled 17th or 18th century that they picked up at auction in say France for big bux. They don't want to hear it when I say, arc welders weren't around back then so you got duped, then they look around to see if they're clients might have heard....Hush. Now they could have paid me to make say a door pull that was ''the real thing''. You can make up whatever century you like, but then they wouldn't get to have their fun traveling around Europe to pick up crap they can sell easily with some smoke and mirrors.
The clock you mentioned sounds as if it was made well, looked good and according to the sales person sold briskly........I wish I was making them, times being what they are, hand forged or not.

[ThomasPowers]

Read the history of the Arts & Crafts Movement and compare it with the crafts movement of the 60's and then start to wonder when the next version will appear!

southshoresmith; I can just see the posts in my head about Miller vs Lincoln and about getting "hand dipped electrodes---made to the original spec!" and the old curmudgeons saying if it wasn't O-A it wasn't *real* *welding*! (And people having highly polished and restored welders who don't use them but an hour or two a year...)

In the armourmaking world we have seen several "made in India" pieces that were artificially aged and sold on e-bay for excessive amounts as excavated finds. Unfortunately most people don't know to look for evidence of real wrought iron usage---without that it's post 1850's!

[dief]

In my shop I have a couple of anvils, a flypress, 110lb air hammer, mig welder, plasma cutter, drill press, vices, and a mess of hand tools. Most of my projects involve a good deal of "heatin & beatin" so I consider myself to be a blacksmith. I use whatever techniques/tools that will achieve the look I and my clients want. Sometimes than means a rivet and other times it means mig weld and hammer/grind to make the weld disappear. Mostly, my clients want a "one of a kind" piece of art. Whether it is a $20 hook or a $10,000 gate I strive to give them that. I love what I do and I make darn good money. Life just doesn't get any better.

[GenericTitle]

In my opinion blacksmithing is a type of fabrication...really fabrication is just the prep and alteration of metal...doesn't matter what tools you use..."old school" blacksmiths only used the primitive tools they had because its all they had at their disposal. I guarantee they would use grinders and welders if they could have back in the day.

[ptree]

In reference to closed die forging, in a steam drop hammer shop, like I grew up around in the beginning of my career, the "Hammer Man" held tongs, and forged. Often to conserve steel, a tong hold was drawn out and this was done open die, on the edge of the closed dies. Blacksmith? Hammer Man? The fellows in that shop were very proud to be called a Hammer Man and would likely have taken great offense at being called a machine operator.

Trip hammers go way way back. So power forging seems to be a blacksmith activity. In days way back holes were drilled, often by a bow drill or lever drill, so drilling seems to be a blacksmithing process. Filing and drilling and scraping and so forth were often done in a seperate room of the shop, and so seem to be blacksmithing to me. Lathes have been around since antiquity and have been used in jewelery and blacksmithing shops since before history, so that counts.
In short, to me, blacksmithing is a way of the MIND, not a way of the tool. Do you use you hand and eye coordination to move metal to yeild a near net part that may then require some post forge finishing? Thats blacksmithing. Do an electric weld, but let it stand as it's own process? Still blacksmithing to me.

[Willis]

As far as 'traditional' blacksmithing, it all depends on how far back your willing to go. Are we modern smiths being traditional if we only go back 100 years or must we go back further in time? Everything is relative. 200 years from now we will be considered the traditional smiths by our smithing brethern who will be alive at that time. Our power hammers, lathes, drill presses and gas forges may well be considered collectable antiques by them. But I bet that somewhere in a back yard there will be some guy with a hand held hammer, a small bag of coal and some kind of self made iron or steel forge still argueing this very point :)

[Francis Trez Cole]

I went to fix a wrought iron gate (well that's what the owner called it ) after inspection it was aluminium. To many shops that do cut and paste give blacksmithing a bad name sure there is a need for it but call it what it is. So when I advertise hand forged people know what they are getting. most of my clients are work of mouth and they know they are getting quality because they have already seen my work and I can come in less expensive. Even king architectural metals sell hand forged elements.

[thingmaker3]

A couple of simple "yes" or "no" questions: Do you hit metal? Is the metal black?

[Frank Turley]

Judson Yaggy brought up the subject of intent. Years ago, the good Tucson smith, Tom Bredlow, was delivering his finely forged gate to the National Cathedral in Washington, D.C. This gate was a memorial for the Packard car family. It was crated it thin plywood, and it just fit in the bed of his old pickup. He stopped by my place in Santa Fe to show it off. He peeled the plywood cover off and there was, to my eye, a magnificant piece of workmanship. I looked at it for a while and complimented him. Then I asked whether there was any possiblity of arc or oxy welding on this gate. Tom snapped, "No, because that wasn't what it was!"

'Nuff said?

[yesteryearforge]

Just refer to yourself as an ARTIST BLACKSMITH and anything goes

[jw223]

Not to sound disrespectful to anyone, but isn't this an "Internet based forum"? Does having a computer in your shop or office make you less of a smith? How about using email to quickly send out quotes? I personally don't consider myself a blacksmith any more than I consider myself a coppersmith. I work with whatever medium the customer wants to purchase, and I use whatever techniques I can to create the desired finished product. On the other hand, I was taught to learn the trade before learning the tricks of it. There will always be someone who can do things either more traditionally, or quicker/cheaper. I had a customer tell me my price on window guards was too expensive- he bought some cheap big-box copies, and was broken into. The thieves went right between the bars. Hmmm....I work with metal because I love the craft, I'm willing to learn from anyone who can do something differently than I can, and I don't feel bad about it!

[Jason @ MacTalis Ironworks]

If you forge it, you're a blacksmith. If you don't forge it, you're a fabricator. Every last blacksmith out there uses some fabrication with their forging, and it was the blacksmiths of old who invented modern fabricating. Nothing wrong with combining forging and fabricating (forgeicating?). Blacksmiths forge, it is kinda a defining quality. So as long as some part of the process involves forging, I consider it to be blacksmithing. If there is no forging at all involved, well... that is what it is...