jake pogrebinsky Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Dave,you did great,boss,right on!You're thinking,experimenting,wiorking at it,one simply cannot do better than that! I've a couple of suggestions for you to try-they're by NO means an improvement on what you do.Not at ALL. Just something that you may try,if you've an hour or two to spare. So,again,something not Instead of what you do,but rather As Well as the way that you're learning to do it! Slit the opening first(lengh of slit=1/2 of perimeter of slitter which is = perimeter of tenon).Make and use what here they call Brian B.'s type slitter for that. Straighten the slit stock back to even size,and upset the slitted area in the vise(wouldn't believe how easy this actually is(as well as all else described here) ) The upset slit will become a small,round hole(that's when to stop the upsetting). Forge a sq.tapered drift,small enough on the end to go into that small,round,upset slit. Drift it sq.,in whatever orientation(diagonal or prallel to the axis of stock),to the size that your tenon is.You'll like it! Oh,yeah,forgot the best part!After drifting square,your sq.hole will be trapezoidal from taper of drift.Flatten it nice and level. Place over your hardy hole small side of pyramidal secton UP. Now,you got your header for your tenon shoulders! By heating your roughly pre-formed tenon(forge over your(nicely radiused anvil edge)And,if it's your lucky day,and you get a nice local heat on tenon plus a little lengh of stock,you'll even get a sexy upset at base of tenoned stock I just noticed that above,John has posted the Right way.This here,you can term the Daft,but Potentially Glorious!(It's of the Character Building variety) :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 Getting it square is a problem Mr John. Prior to using the butcher I marked and lightly chisel cut opposite sides using a square to walk the mark around. The chisel cut helped register the butcher. I like your rig though! Probably save some time! I do want to try the Brian B. slitter sometime. I made some of the rounded blade type slitters but it seems that Brian B's slitters get a much more clean and uniform hole. I've got some 1" race car axle material that I am going to make some of those slitters out of. One reason my hole is a bit ragged is I had a thoughtless moment and grabbed the 5/8" slitter when I am only drifting a 1/2" hole. (Better get those moments worked out before I take an apprenticeship anywhere! LOL I'l be forging casket hardware....FOR ME!) I figured I could take a piece of leaf spring or something, slit and drift it to the correct size, file finish the sides, and use that as a sort of monkey tool for finishing up the upset and shoulder of my tenons. That keeps the stress off of the actual joints. I could also stand to make a decent 1/2" drift. I've got a short 1/2" square drift that I made a year ago, but it's a little ragged. I figured a section of coil spring would work nicely. I'd just air cool it, but I think that would be better than mild steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Sorry Jake, going to have to elaborate on your perception of drifting here. You drift a hole to a finished size and the hole sides should end up parallel, The front of the drift has a long taper, leading to the finished profile and at the top of the drift, you taper them off again so the drift can be driven all the way through the material you are sizing, sample pic of a round drift Dave I'm going back to basics here, making a tenon or shoulder, Mark the tenons shoulder position with a butcher, The curved blade notches the corners so you can locate the butcher as you rotate your piece What you are terming a Butcher, is actually a side set Then you use the side set to define the edge of the tenon the width of the bar and if you dont have a good square corner on your anvil, make yourself a block to fit into the hardie hole Then draw down the tenon and finish with the set hammer to fit the pre made hole (mortice) where the tenon will fit. I then use the piece it is going to fit into as a monkey tool and set the tenon over a suitable bolster, in this case the pritchel hole on the anvil Finish the tenon as you want then, in your case prepare with a slot for your wedge to fit This may illustrate better why you are having trouble with your 'butcher', another problem with the set up is you are trying to mark two opposite sides at once, and unless you have some form of location for the top and bottom tools to sit in before you strike the top tool it is almost impossible to get them directly over each other due to the inherent clearances you have to have on your guilotine tool to allow it to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Thanks,John,for the correction!There is,of course,the difference between the punch and the drift,and i've been so half-a**,for so long,as to be using the tools interchangably... Excellent description of the process,and some very elegantly shaped tools(as well as the thought and the logic behind them)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 7, 2011 Author Share Posted October 7, 2011 Thanks for the pics Mr. john! I've got a large handled chisel that I never use! I could modify that to be the curved butcher pretty easily. Seeing as I don't have a striker, I may make some dies for the guilottine tool that will do the same thing. Right now I am using flat dies on the power hammer and then finishing with a sharp corner block and a set hammer under the treadle hammer. However the block is about 1" square and is not attached to the lower die. I've sold the treadle hammer and so I don't want to make anymore special tools for it before the guy comes and picks it up. (I'll hopefully be building a new one in the not too distant future.) I experimented with trying to get a better shoulder and finish on the tennon this evening. Mostly I just learned what not to do! Better than nothing I suppose! I also made a round and square drift out of spring steel to replace the undersized mild steel ones I had been using. After I finished the drifts, I did another slit and drift hole, this time using the correct 1/2" slitter. I got a much cleaner hole though I pushed the square drift in at a bit of an angle! The main thing for me is that I am actually doing it though! It's nice when you finally aquire the tooling to do a new job. Refining those tools will come in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Your power hammer can do single blows with controlled force right? How about making a rodded tool and a tool holder to do this on the hammer? These hammers are a little bigger, but I can't imagine the concepts changing. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 Your power hammer can do single blows with controlled force right? How about making a rodded tool and a tool holder to do this on the hammer? These hammers are a little bigger, but I can't imagine the concepts changing.http://www.iforgeiro...__fromsearch__1 Phil I am hesitant to make any tools for the power hammer because the dies need to be redone. They do not quite line up right. I don't know about single blows with controlled force.....I'm still practicing that! LOL The roller valve has been giving me fits here lately and I will likely have to replace it soon. I would like to upgrade the air system to the newer style a lot of guys have done. I'm not really sure how it works, but everyone says it has more control. I'm kind of waiting on the air cylinder to go though, as I don't want to trash good parts! Also I may be doing a tire hammer workshop in December. In that case, one hammer would just have tooling and one would be for forging. Not sure which would be which, so I'd hate to make a bunch of tooling that I couldn't use under the tire hammer for some reason. The latest progress is as follows. I made a tool out of an axle end, for squaring and upsetting the tenon shoulder. It works well, although its not the prettiest tool on the shelf. Most of the seating is done in the tool and then the last couple of blows is done in the actual hole. Last night I started filing out the wedge slot, and I'm hoping to get the wedge done this morning. (I need to get a small square file though to square up the slot corners.) I am also going to do a tenon test piece for the wedge joint out of 3/4 round instead of 5/8" square. Mr. John had suggested this. 3/4" round is just slightly smaller than the bulge that results from slitting and drifting the mortise hole. With a bit of upset in the 3/4" round it will match the bulge, I think it will look better, and it will have a more meaty shoulder. I still need to do some lap joint test pieces, a 5/8" slit and drift test piece, a test piece welding 5/8"x1/4" into 5/8" square (where the heart meets the "x",) a square corner in 5/8" square, a slit ad drift for the mortise and tenon joints on the top and bottom of the frame, and a tenon in flat bar for the same joints. And probably something I'm forgetting. Lots of work to do, best get to it! P.S. I have a role of drawing paper on the way, so that as soon as I get these test pieces done, I can transfer my rough draft full scale drawing to a final draft full scale drawing. I'm starting to get excited! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 19, 2011 Author Share Posted October 19, 2011 Latest updates I've spent the day working on test pieces thus far! I got the square corner done and the results documented. Could be better, but seeing it's like the third one I've ever done, I'm happy with it! As per the design, it's not a right angle corner. I also got the slot filed and the wedge made for the wedge joints. I did the first test piece with a 5/8" square bar with a 1/2" slit and drift hole through it. The wedge bar was also 5/8" with a 1/2" tenon, the shoulder being upset. The slot is about 1/4"x3/4", and the wedge is made from 1/4"x1" flat bar. I thought I would do some file finish stuff on the tenon ends and maybe in a couple other places, just to add a little "twist." Like Mr. John B suggested, I also tried a test piece with the 1/2" tenon in 3/4" round. I really like the way this looks and so I will be using this size. The results of the test piece were documented. I am going to make one more to try to get things a bit tighter. I used the same wedge, and a similarly sized slot as the other one. No file finish on this one. I used the cold chisel some to clean out the slot in the tenon. That was better than filing the hole thing. I also did the overlap piece. 5/8 lapping onto 1/4"x1" I was going to try a 1/4"x1/2" slit and drift hole for another part of the project. However, the 1/4"x1/2" mild steel drift DID not hold up. After lunch things declined somewhat. Left to right in the picture below the story is: Left: failed attempt at the 1/4"x1/2" slit and drift Second from left: slit too off-center Third from left: drift got off at an angle for some reason Far right: a little off center and drift wasn't quite square I am going to do one more wedge joint test piece and try to get things tighter. Mainly tighter between the mortise and tenon hole. The wedge and slot are fine! If a take a good test piece to the class maybe I won't look like a complete moron! LOL I'll probably do a couple more of the square corners too. For now I need to make a good 1/4"x1/2" drift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Coming along nicely Dave, If your drift didn't last it may be because either you were asking too much of it, or the metal was not hot enough, Did you try a lube when drifting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Nice! In the Hofi series there is a salt based lube that has worked for me and my limited fun with drifting. It is 1 pint water (start hot), 1 tablespoon dish soap, salt to saturate (about 1/2 cup) dip the warm tool and you get a film that prevents jamming after the liquid dries. Alternately, I was shown to drift in stages at the open forge I was at in Burton by Jason. That was a smaller hole however. No lube was used, but while the drift cooled the heat would travel back into the rim of the hole. Pretty neat! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Dave,the two test pieces at the top look lovely.Really,very cool looking stuff,and even better is that very fact that you're studying thise joints. Extremely gratifying to watch your progress,how you deal with all the incoming advice,how It changes things,all of it-admirable! Keep on keeping on,old hoss,you're practically there!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 I did not lube! Never have used lube though I've heard of people using it. The piece I bent the drift on has some burn crud on it, so I think it was hot enough! LOL I'll save some ashes from yesterday's fire and lube with that this morning. I'm going to remake the 1/4"x1/2" drift using coil spring. While it cools, I'll try to get the 1/2" slit and drift done, and maybe the final 1/2" tenon in 3/4" round. I do have a question about the tenon though. I am using about 7/8" of the end of the 3/4" round bar, to make the tenon. Right now I mark with a chisel all of the way around (pending the manufacture of a proper butcher tool like Mr. John posted,) butcher in, then forge the tenon to size under the power hammer. Then I heat the shoulder up, place the tenon into a tool that has a 1/2" square hole in it, and hammer downward. This gives a bit of an upset at the shoulder. The last few blows are done in the actual hole the tenon goes in and the upside marked so that it fits just right. Getting things square and straight has been a challenge. Any better recommended method or added steps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wesley Chambers Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I've found this whole thread to be very insightful, thanks all. Keep it coming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomN Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Looking forward to seeing this project progress and the final product take shape. Its also teaching me many things as well, so its helpful as well as inspiring! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I did not lube! I do have a question about the tenon though. I am using about 7/8" of the end of the 3/4" round bar, to make the tenon. Right now I mark with a chisel all of the way around (pending the manufacture of a proper butcher tool like Mr. John posted,) butcher in, then forge the tenon to size under the power hammer. Then I heat the shoulder up, place the tenon into a tool that has a 1/2" square hole in it, and hammer downward. This gives a bit of an upset at the shoulder. The last few blows are done in the actual hole the tenon goes in and the upside marked so that it fits just right. Getting things square and straight has been a challenge. Any better recommended method or added steps? Hi Dave, Lube is just an option. In your pictures, the tenon looks to have the chisel marks in just up from the shoulder. The idea of the butcher is to define the start of shoulder and to act as a datum for the rest of the sequence. It looks like you used a V chisel to mark around the bar, the butcher has a flat side. I'l post pictures here of the process and the hand tools used to make a tenon, captions on pictures should help explain. The tools used The Butcher The Side set The Set hammer The square bar is jumped up/ upset up to prepare the bar end for the tenon(could be a heel bar) Using the butcher, held square to the axis, work your way marking around the bar, locating each position from the previous notched corner, if you are square, the marks should line up Selecting a sharpish edge on the anvil, use the set hammer to start to set down the tenon, If your anvil does not have a square corner, consider making a block with square and radiused corners to fit the hardie hole Then draw out tenon to size and to fit your previously punched hole Then seat the tenon by using the previously made part as a monkey tool over a suitable bolster plate (or pritchel hole or swage block) You can then complete as required. Hope this clarifies the sequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 In your pictures, the tenon looks to have the chisel marks in just up from the shoulder. The idea of the butcher is to define the start of shoulder and to act as a datum for the rest of the sequence. Ok I see where my problem is. I am using the butcher to define the shoulder. However, what is happening is I'm doing all of the shoulder upsetting in my square hole which shifts the shoulder away from the original butcher line. (Seen in the picture I posted.) I'll upset first next time, then butcher, then just lightly seat the shoulder in the square hole. (The tenon pictured was butchered in a little deep as well.) Between yesterday afternoon and the beginning of this morning, I messed up six slit and drift holes in a row. No one is going to blame me for not trying, but it sure tries the patience. I finally got a couple good ones right after lunch. I also made the 1/4"x1/2" drift and now for a change of scenery, I'm trying the flat bar pieces at the top and bottom of the design. I'm not pleased with the results thus far, and it has also been rather time consuming. (And I smacked my hand with a three pound sledge while upsetting on a floor anvil. OUCH!) Over all, this suff is a shot in the dark and I appreciate you posting the pictures and giving advice. My sister has company tonight, but I'm going to try to get back out and maybe do another tenon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Ok I see where my problem is. I am using the butcher to define the shoulder. However, what is happening is I'm doing all of the shoulder upsetting in my square hole which shifts the shoulder away from the original butcher line. (Seen in the picture I posted.) I'll upset first next time, then butcher, then just lightly seat the shoulder in the square hole. (The tenon pictured was butchered in a little deep as well.) . Hi Dave, I'm getting confused here on your method or terminology. Upsetting in your square hole,? The Bar ends are first upset, then marked for your required distance (space between the crib's ends in your case), then the ends butchered around at these dimensions. The butchered line is the start of the tenon reduction, and end of the parent bar, The tenon start is then put in with the side set, (Your guillotine tools angled blades equivalent, but don't take them fully down to tenon size, and if using top and bottom tools, remember to turn the bar 180 degrees as the top side moves down more than the base side) Then use your parallel dies to draw down to finished tenon size. The upsetting is done prior to these operations, the monkeying is to just seat the tenon squarely into its final fitted position and should not alter the shoulder from the original butcher line, which is now the actual shoulder. Should the final overall lengths of the bars vary any when you come to the assembly, these can be adjusted by upsetting the bars slightly to reduce their overall length, or drawing them slightly to increase the overall length Slitting and drifting is a difficult exercise, particularly when in a tenon. 10 out 10 for effort, you will be rewarded eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 Ok, I think it's my method! I was butchering, sizing the tenon, and then trying to upset the shoulder by placing the tenon into the square hole and hammering downward. I did the upset first on this latest try and it worked a bit better and faster. I still need to try to make a different butcher tool though to mark the bar. That's going to be difficult with only an angle grinder though. The shoulder on this last one ended up a bit rough, because of the lack of proper butchering technique. (Basically I "butchered" it. Of course it wasn't MY fault....it's the tooling! LOL ) Anyway, I kind of cleaned the tenon up with a block and set hammer under my treadle hammer, after doing the mass of the work under the power hammer. I've got good anvil edges, but no strikers to hit my top tools. I need to make some flat die pieces for my guilotine tool. I also need to use my bar of 4140 to make the various set hammers that are commonly used. (2" square 4140) However, I need to get better at getting my holes centered first. It'd be a bummer to have 6 consecutive offcenter holes in chunks of 4140! So anyway, I snapped some pictures doing the last tenon tonight. I used the tripod and self timer on the camera so things are a bit blurry. Sorry! First heat: Upsetting on the ASO floor anvil. No I didn't slip, I don't know what happened to this picture. Results....... Second heat: Butchering.....(STILL got it a little too deep!) Third heat: shaping the tenon on the flat dies. Fourth heat: cleaning things up under the treadle Fifth heat: seating in the hole Results: Here is a tool I made out of the scrap end of an axle. I just use it to back up the slit and drift piece when I'm seating the tenon shoulder. I need to get the number of heats down of course, and I also have to be careful about cooking the tenon while I'm trying to get the shoulder hot. I was trying to get the camera set up and let it sit a bit long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Drop a slug into the magician as a stop at the correct depth. Hold it in place with a ring or piece of wire. This ASSUMES (uh huh, I said it) that the material moves equally well on both sides of the bar. Since the bar is skinny, the heat should be the same all the way across... Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Hi Dave, That looks good and the method is now working for you The only nit pick I would make is in the fourth heat picture, the top and bottom tools you are using to make the tenon look to have an excessive radius on their edges. With regard to making a Butcher, and only having an angle grinder, If you have, or make a curved butcher You can grind the angle on the outer edge of this tool, and use it to cut out for a butcher on a flat piece of tool steel that you can attach heat treat, and use in your guillotine tool, mount it in the centre, and use a flat die in the base Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 21, 2011 Author Share Posted October 21, 2011 I'll get a close up picture, Mr. John of the set hammer and block I was using. I was thinking they were a bit sharp, but I'm not really familiar with what is regarded as sharp and what is radius. I should be able to turn out a curved butcher! We are working on getting rock laid out in the main drain feed into our pond, so I may be working on that today. If so, I won't get anything done in the shop until after 3 PM maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Just remove the sharp edge, If you have a completely sharp corner in the tenon/shoulder it may (unlikely but may) be a weak point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Ok big day for me! I made my first handled tool from scratch today. I used 1 1/4" race car axle, which is rated as "pretty darn good metal" I believe. Before I could do so, I needed a slitter and drift of the proper size. The slitter I made out of a piece of bush hog blade. I seemed to hold up well! I squared the axle up slightly under the power hammer. Then I center punched where I needed on both sides and started slitting. It took several heats and then dad came over and swung the sledge, which sped things up. The slit was pretty on center (compared to some of my past work ) and so we ran the drift through. Things got a little out of line with the drift. However, I got the blade tapered, cupped, things finished out, and after an ungodly portion of grinding..................... It's a bit lopsided and this is one of those pieces I "FORGOT" to put my touchmark on so in a hundred years it can't be traced back to me! LOL I have the curved butcher made but supper was ready before I could get to tempering! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Hi Dave, Curve looks a little lumpy, but good job for a first attempt, and it should work fine, which is the acid test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Here is the curved butcher for the guilotine tool! I made a tenon tonight with it and it's the best one so far. I was hoping to get more done but I had power hammer failure which resulted in me bashing my finger against a sharp corner on the 1500 pound machine, then I burned myself on the engine block warmer that I had on the spool valve. Figured it was time to call it quits before I killed myself. More work on Monday maybe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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