Bill in Oregon Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 We'll be moving in May to a more rural property and one of my first priorities after deer-fencing the garden will be to build a small, simply smithy. As I mostly run a charcoal forge (and occasionally the propane) I am thinking of using natural light, augmented with a kerosene lamp. This way I can skip wiring and all the other stuff that would require a building permit. I'd like the structure to have an old-time look, so I'm thinking vertical board and batten on the outside, corrugated steel roof, but insulated walls and either drywall or corrugated steel for the walls inside to further reduce fire risk. The floor could be dirt or crushed granite, but I was quite intrigued by the end-grain wood floor over crushed rock and compacted sand in another thread here. Anyone here build a small smithy like this? Say about 8 by 12 feet? Did you do a gabled roof? Shed roof? All thoughts most welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 In some areas a foundation requires a permit (even a pad for a skid building in some areas), but a skid building on dirt or cinder block does not. Having any floor other than plank in a skid building is difficult. Cutting a hole in the floor for a stump is easy though. If a foundation does not require a permit, then your options are rather open. In some areas an existing building getting electrical added later does not require special permits either. In MY area only plumbing requires a permit, and I think only sanitary plumbing outside the building! (but I have a friend who is supposed to pull a permit to paint interior walls) Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I had an interesting discovery last night. I had spend from 8:15 in the morning till 6"16 at night teaching an Intro to BS class at the local University and had spent it all standing on a concrete floor. By the end of the day my feet were killing me such that I was giving a lot of thought to not unpacking everything when I got home. I backed my truck into my smithy and got out and as I was walking on the coarse sand/fine gravel floor I suddenly noticed that my feet were not hurting! I unloaded the entire truck with no problem! How is the moisture level in your part of the country? Are pole barns given more lenient standards? I've generally found that forging in poor light results in poor work. I run a long extension cord to the shop and use twin halogen floodlamps when I need to work after dark. (Someday the electricity will come!) If you do go with drywall---cover it with corrugated steel roofing anyway. It will stay looking good a lot longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Countryboy39067 Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I suppose depending on how rural your new home is will dictate the building permits. They are nonexistent out in the sticks here in central Mississippi. Might I suggest building a lean-to structure. Depending on your lots size, you can add on to a lean-to with ease. It can be widened by building another stall and by building onto the high side of the pitched roof, making it a two pitch roof like most homes. Crushed granite or pea gravel is in my mind best for the floor due to it's forgiveness of the sore feet syndrome, not effected by moisture, and keeps you from tracking in dirt into the home leading you to having to sleep in the smithy.!! Lol. The more light the better. I wired my smithy with 3 rows of lights. Each row on a separate switch so I can shade any part of the shop for accurate metal temp colors. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knots Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 In most jurisdictions you can build an outbuilding, which is not intended to be inhabited/lived in, without a permit. My recollection is that the maximum size exempted from permitting requirements is around 150 square feet. However jurisdictions do vary. I suggest that you go online and check for both State and local building codes. Many times the Building Codes will be posted on line. After you think you know what the requirements are verify them with whatever jurisdiction is responsible for enforcement. You will need to build on a good foundation if you intend to finish the building out. Frost heave will be a problem if you don't set the foundation to a depth below frost line. Building movement due to frost heave can spoil dry wall joints and more. If you are in snow country make the roof pitch as steep as you can. A few years back I built a small outbuilding. I built it with a stout gable roof on it. Rafter space is good storage. You can never have to much of that. Also in a small building gable windows add a lot of natural light. If you want to avoid deep foundations look into pole buildings. There is a lot of information on line on this kind of construction. Good luck. Happy forging. PS - You could do an end grain floor in a pole building if you use ground contact treated timber around the perimeter. There is the issue of moisture to deal with. The details would need to be carefully considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill in Oregon Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Thanks for the thoughts folks. There is no frost line in southern Oregon (about 15 miles as the crow flies from Kaliforny), so heave is not an issue. It can be damp, though, so I may just have to consider a poured slab and do the thing right. There is an existing 8 X 12 shed on the place with 2X12 plank floors on six-foot railroad tie centers (can you say springy?). I may just tear off the old roof once things dry out and see if the walls and floor are shot from rain leaks. If sound, I will probably throw on a new roof, reside, refloor after adding joists, insulate and cover the walls with corrugated. Might take me a few days to get her in shape, but it's either fix it or tear it down, and I want to get forging. May have to consider pouring a concrete foot for the anvil area by cutting through the floor and building a form right into the soil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Pein Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Here's what I did. The biggest that I could build without a permit was 120 sq. ft. So I did 10X12. I built it tall and have a full loft that can be accessed through a hatch in the floor or the front doors. I put a lot of overhang, the eves have 1/4 hardware cloth to let air in and keep vermin out. I need the ventilation because of the dirt floor. I went down 2 - 1/2 feet for the foundation. As you can see, I move my bs stuff outside to forge. There just is not enough room inside. I have a 25X19' barn the will hopefully become my smithy one day. Major work needed to remove the wood floor and redo the roof first. Bill Guess the picture didn't go - will do some reading and try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Pein Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I think I got it this time! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 My wife and I have been researching this heavily the past two years. Most counties in Oregon do not require any structural permit for an "agricultural building." If the strucutre is not intended to be "in support of the house" (like a garage or woodshop) then no structural permit is needed. In most counties, that is. 12 volt wiring does not require a permit in Oregon, in many cases. Many portable inverters run on 12 volts. Just sayin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsberg Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Hey Bill, Since you are considering everything, have you looked into cordwood walls? They are very fireproof, cheap and act as their own insulation! They also defenitally have a very old timey look to them I havn't had the chance to make a building with this technique as of yet, but hopefully I will some day. Here are a few links to some more information about this very old building technique.http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=cordwood+walls&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&sa=X&ei=r-91TcydJJSFtgfIt8WpBg&ved=0CDEQsAQhttp://www.daycreek.com/dc/html/dc_cordwood_masonry.htmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cordwood_construction Note that they have also been made in very wet areas and they hold up fine there, as long as the ends of the wood are NOT treated! The wood must be able to breathe! Caleb Ramsby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 12 volt wiring does not require a permit in Oregon, in many cases. Many portable inverters run on 12 volts. Just sayin... Does retrofitting an existing building have the same requirements for permits? Build one year, wire the next? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill in Oregon Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 Wow, lots more to think about. Cross pein: Nice smithy. Thingmaker: Sorry you are locked in mortal combat with the county planning department. Down here in Jackson County, the planning staff is so short-handed that they take up to five business days just to return a phone call ... Caleb, that cordwood construction method looks almost too pretty for a smithy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Stubbs Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Bill i know what you are going through. i am in the process of building a storage shed/blacksmith shop. there is already a concrete pad poured near the area i want to use. my original plan was to make a building that was 10'x20'. i am planning to make it a pole style frame with OSB sheeting and vinyl for the outside. well went to measure the pad and find out it is not 10'x10' as i thought. it is actually 10'x9'8". which is no big deal. i can still work with that. i was going to pour another concrete pad to match the one already there. then i got to reading the posts here and someone said something about standing on concrete all day and their feet hurting. so now i am thinking of doing pea gravel for the shop side. of course then when i thought of the pea gravel it was like oh ok so how do i do the framing for that side.dont want to use treated lumber to expensive. then i thought well dummy(me lol)just put a small foundation style around where your framing will go. so that is what i think i will do. pour a small 6"wide x4"deep small foundation for the framing to sit on and then use pea gravel packed down for the floor, using a small vibrating machine to pack it down. any thoughts on doing this would be welcome. still in the planning stage. i have priced out the material for doing this type of storage/shop and i think it will be around a grand for all the material. labour will be free seeing how it is my girlfriend and myself who will being doing the work. might have to kick a case of beer to ourselves for payment..lol. so any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. and when i get started will make sure i get some pics to post. might take a little to build seeing how i am still recovering from rotator cuff surgery.but with help hopefully it will be done by the end of the month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill in Oregon Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 Jim: I'm all for a comfortable floor, too. I'm not sure I would choose pea gravel though, as I don't think it would want to stay compacted. I would choose decomposed granite or even 3/4-minus crushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Stubbs Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Jim: I'm all for a comfortable floor, too. I'm not sure I would choose pea gravel though, as I don't think it would want to stay compacted. I would choose decomposed granite or even 3/4-minus crushed. Hi Bill well i was thinking that with the little footing around the edges for the framing and the gravel inside and using the vibrating machine it would stay compacted. not really sure if it will or not. why i tossed that out there. like i said it is still in the planning stages so i have some time yet before i really decide. i still might just go with another concrete pad and put down some rubber mats around the anvil. definitely will be adding electrical to it though. and again going to be cheap seeing i will do the electrical myself. will have to make sure i remember to put a chase under the footing/pad to be able to get electrical into the building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 RR ties for the perimeter? Our local Electrical CoOp will give old utility poles away to members as another possible perimeter suggestion. I went with PT lumber buying one 16' piece a week when I didn't spend my allowance at the fleamarket. (yeah I'm 54 and get an allowance: $20 a week to spend on *ANYTHING* that won't get me killed by my wife; so it's beer on Bad Movie Night, Flea Market Finds, and Shop building and propane and stock) My dirty forge extension is built in two 15' bents so a 16' lets me make a good overlap. I went with propane as it was free---hail damage. With massive ventilation I have not found it too hot in summer yet. Of course I have not closed off the ridge line or peaks of the trusses yet either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Stubbs Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 RR ties for the perimeter? Our local Electrical CoOp will give old utility poles away to members as another possible perimeter suggestion. I went with PT lumber buying one 16' piece a week when I didn't spend my allowance at the fleamarket. (yeah I'm 54 and get an allowance: $20 a week to spend on *ANYTHING* that won't get me killed by my wife; so it's beer on Bad Movie Night, Flea Market Finds, and Shop building and propane and stock) My dirty forge extension is built in two 15' bents so a 16' lets me make a good overlap. I went with propane as it was free---hail damage. With massive ventilation I have not found it too hot in summer yet. Of course I have not closed off the ridge line or peaks of the trusses yet either... Hi Thomas that is funny with the allowance. my plans are to make the storage/shop like a pole barn style with a sloped roof. i am planning to use sheetmetal for the roof as this will cut down on the costs. we have some extra sheetmetal from building the stable. might have to buy one or two but that is ok. my plan is for the lowest end to be 7' inside. and the highest close to 8'. never thought of RR ties for a footing. sometimes they are hard to find around here. unless maybe i can talk the railroad into a few of them.and depending on price. my plan was to put in some type of opening for windows in the shop area. i was thinking of putting up screen and then getting some plastic/acrylic for a window in the winter. i could also put in a fan for ventilation that way if it gets to stuffy/hot inside. Oklahoma can get a little warm..lol.i figure i am going to put in a 60 amp panel to help with lighting,fans, etc. might be over kill but will allow for some expansion later on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Put in a plug for an arc welder too! It's been fun running my shop on such an allowance + birthday money, selling stuff, teaching. Sure keeps your scrounging sense turned way up! (and keeps you from over buying a lot of stuff---if I do come upon a great deal I can borrow against my future allowance so I should say my allowance is $20 +/- $1000.) By sticking to it we are never hard up for money for when you can pick up something at a way low price but need cash NOW! In OK you may want to think about putting in "sliding barn door" walls to open the shop up in summer. Also if you can put in a substantial overhang on the roof it can make storing steel outside easier. I plan to install a couple of pieces of pipe mounted horizontally to the utility poles so I can slip 20' sections of "new" stock into them and lock them down and not take up room in the shop---1 for 1/2" one for 3/8" one for 1/4" round and square Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Stubbs Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 actually i was thinking of putting in a sliding door. i am going to go with traditional two doors for the storage and a sliding door for the shop. i have found a video of a smith making door hinges and i think that is what i will do for the storage part. and a nice pull handle for the shop part. as for the welding plug i can add that any time i want. my plan is to put in a small 60 amp 4-6 breaker panel and go from there. i can upgrade/expand any time i want/need to. as far an over hang i should have about a foot over hang on front and back due to the sheet metal roof pieces being 12' long each. so that should help with some storage of steel. sounds like a good idea with the outside storage. a good idea there might be to use some 4" pvc pipe with a screw on cap. that way it is kind of weather proof and easy to get to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I can't use PVC out here, the UV is massive and most plastics and even wood degrade fairly fast. I'm looking for irrigation pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Does retrofitting an existing building have the same requirements for permits? Build one year, wire the next? Phil Sad to say, but in Oregon they want you to pull a permit for ANY 110V or bigger wiring. Even if you're just moving or adding a single outlet or lamp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill in Oregon Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 Thomas: That irrigation pipe is a pious idea. Just remember to plug the open end with a small wad of fine-mesh hardware cloth to keep the wasps out. Don't ask me how I know ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce wilcock Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 if you are pushed for room setting your hearth into the wall ,like a bakers oven flush with the wall and canopy and flue outside ,built of stone or bocks it makes a neat job ,olso keeps the shop tidy ,i worked at a shoeing shop that had five hearths all set into the wall with the flues outside the hearths were made of brick with arched tops like a row of bee hives .As an aside all the anvils faced the same way pike tawards tong hand, apart from mine i was the only left hander ,men working on pice work soon had to find the way to make a living and way a anvil faced was not custom ,it was found to make work flow better ,if we were needing a good edge we went around the anvil ,all the anvils were well broken in .Hope you get your shed up , big sky lights are a great help and stop peepers peeping in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Bruce; I found a forge and anvil plan from a carriage factory in the 1880's that had the anvil point toward the forge. Guess that is what worked best for them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce wilcock Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 we have one anvil pike towards the hearth and mine pike away , so i have a anvil in both camps bets on each way ,and one 5cwt anvil in the shed with the massey that we lay on its side against the wall to swing a monkey on just to confuse the issue .Still back to sheds i find a sill or step a in or out at the door a pain . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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