Jourenyman Rank? Blacksmith? Bladesmith?

[skillaid]

Hello All,

I have started learning how to become a blacksmith. My real goal of course is to focus on bladesmith work. I came across the Bladesmith Society, where you can become a Certified Journeyman and Master based on certain cretria.

Anyway I have a few questions:

(1) Is there such a thing for blacksmiths as well? Master and Journeyman certificaitons / ranks?

(2) What organazations do you all recommend joining to gain a social network / access to real helpful people and knowledge / and worth being a part of? (ex: ABANA, Amercian Bladesmith Society, etc.)

(3) What would be a good first blade related project to work with?

(4) What site or place does everyone recommend for getting bar stock from? I have found a few places... but I am sure since you all do this you would have better idea's than I would.

thanks!

[Daryl]

Check with the HABA site. They have set out similar criteria for smithing that I was screaming for up here for years before I gave up.

[SteveA]

See you're in Georgia... especially if you're in west Georgia... I'd recommend the AFC (Alabama Forge Council), especially the annual events at Tannehill State Park. The Batson Blade Symposium is the first weekend in April every year, and the fall conference is always the weekend after Labor Day. Fall conference is more general blacksmithing. I'm sure Georgia has a similar organization. There's also, I believe, a Georgia knifemakers guild/group/society... sometime after I post this I'll remember where I saw their contact information.

I just joined the ABS while attending their Intro to Bladesmithing school in Washington Arkansas. Highly recommended.

As for bar stock, if you mean mild steel, I can only suggest looking under "steel" in your yellow pages. That's how I found both of the local suppliers I use. If you meant blade steel, I think of Admiral, Crucible, Pop's Knives and Supplies (I think he's in Georgia), and Uncle Al (Riverside Machine in Arkansas). Another good source for steel is to attend the blacksmithing conferences and hammerins...

Steve

[SteveA]

First knife project... full tang drop point approx 4" hunter.

Steve, again

[SteveA]

And again...

I think there were Journeyman requirements posts on the ABANA site once upon a time. Not sure if that was a formal program so much as kind of a way to see how you were doing. I took it as kind of a self-appraisal thing. Not sure I really always agreed with what they said was more difficult. But maybe it wasn't supposed to be in order of difficulty, either.

I think that's finally all I had to say.

Steve

[skillaid]

I am in West Georgia, - I live, work, play in LaGrange!!

If you could find that contact for the knife makers guild in Georgia that would be great.

I do know that Don Fogg is out of Jasper, AL. And I figure one day I would make a trip to his Forge and meet him. I know he is a Master Bladesmith.

I plan on joining the ABS, but before I did I wanted to setup my forge and do some basic blacksmith work, and make some thing for my wife and I. This way I get some newbie experince out of the way, before I start knife making. I hear you have to be a member for like 3 years in the ABS before you can even try to get the rank of Journeyman.

ANyway thanks for all the info -

BTW, I am going to the event I posted in the calendars section this Saturday. A day with blacksmiths in Pine Mountain GA.

[SteveA]

www.georgiaknifemakersguild.com

Yes, you have to be an ABS member three years before trying for JS. Taking the intro class at the school cuts a year off that requirement. Given the pace I work, I'm not sure that matters.

Steve

[JPH]

Skillaid:

It's no real news about how I personally feel about the ABS, the KG, ABANA or 99% of all the other "groups" out there. A piece of paper won't make you a better anything. Only you can do that.

For myself, joining any of these groups will not benefit me as I don't feel that what they offer in return for my membership dues is worth it. Granted I am in a very unusual position that only a small handful are in.

I feel that if you do good work, it stands on its own, not because you have a membership in this or that. If YOU want to join a given group...that is YOUR choice. You do not "have to belong" to be sucessful or good at what you want to do...Like I said a piece of paper from the "What ever we want you must do" folks wont make you a better anything. I know I am a bit anti-social in this regard and frankly...so what?? I am not a joiner I guess....

Ahhhhhhhh what do I know anyways...

What ever you do...just have fun doing it...


Good luck

JPH

[Strine]

JPH
Not all groups exist for YOUR benefit. Some, like the one I belong to, exist to arrest the decline of the trade as a whole. This is impossible without a membership comprised at least in part of people who do good work that stands on its own. One benefit that you are missing out on is the good feeling you get in helping some one else attain the unusual position that only a small handful are in. Perhaps the ABA (Vic) Inc is in the 1% minority.

[JPH]

Strine:

In response:


<>

I am not a charity nor am I a philantropist. There is simply no benefit for myself in joing these groups, and frankly, from what the members of several of them have said about myself, and what I have done (and they were very upset about this for some reason and it got quite ugly..) for this craft (which, by the way IS considerable..) I wouldn't want to become a member. There are no secrets to this...and "their's" isn't the only way to do this either.



I never said it was impossible. All I said is a piece of paper isn't going to make anyone a better maker. Only the one doing the work can do that.



I have "helped out" I would say conservatively, going by what my statements I get from Paladin says, since 1987 well over 75,000 folks, and that is from only that one avenue. It doesn't include all the classes I have given, nor the lecture series at University or with State Colleges, nor at the various museums I have done demonstrations at, let alone the research papers, magainze articles and my thesis. I have no way of really knowing how many I have helped out over the last 25 years. I will say it's more than a few.



I have no idea who/what the ABA is..To me it stands for the American Bar Association, a bunch of lawyers who "police" other lawyers.

If someone wants to join whatever group(s) they want to..that is fine. If they feel that it will be a benefit for them..Great. They simply hold no interest for me, nor is there enough of a return for the lucre involved (and some of these groups nail ya with "hidden" fees, that they say you must pay to be a "member in good standing" on top of the annual membership fees. There is something about them doing that, well..I just don't like it).

When I started doing this almost 40 years ago, there wasn't any of these groups around...so I did what I had to, and did it pretty much on my own.. I had some help from several folks (Herr Hauffmann for one, to whom I am very grateful for what he showed me...) when I first started but I was pretty much all by my lonesome.

As years passed, these groups popped into existence and well, the way they were being run, held very little interest for me at the time. I also encountered various individuals who, when asked questions just blew me off..especially when I was first starting out as a pre-teenager. Herr Haufmann was the first one who took me seriously and only because he thought after a day or so of hard work he'd get rid of me who was really pestering him.

So all of this is the basic reason why I have done what I have done and I made a promise that if anyone ever asked me how I did something, and they were serious about knowing how..I'd tell them.

I do not belong to any sort of "metal working" organization, as I don't have to. I am too independant I guess. I do what I do, and I must be doing something right cause I am sought out by folks from all over the world, asking questions...and I answer them the best I can.

For you to insinuate that I am not helping people is ludicris..

JPH

[irnsrgn]

I probably should have kept my nose outa this conversation, but as I am sticking it in where it probably shouldn't be here goes.

I believe in the old world guild system, there were Masters, Journeymen and assorted other titles that were bestowed on individuals after taking a test of some sort and the results had to be verified by several (not just one MASTER). I believe the guild system was formed to keep those individuals out who the guild deemed did not measure up. It sure kept the inept or those who would have degraded the trade out. But on the other hand it was a kind of CASTE system and I believe was a sort of CLICHE THING, and was more or less abandoned when people came to this new world to be free of oppression and the Caste System.


To have a Master, Journeyman or other title should not come from ones own opinion of ones self, but be bestowed by those peers that are much better than oneself or it means nothing. The old adage the Proof is in the Pudding comes to mind and in this case The Proof is in the Quality of the Work.

I have met quite a few who stated that they were Masters, and in quite a few cases I just couldn't help but bust out laughing when seeing them work. This goes for other trades as well as blacksmithing.

To me bladesmithing is sort of an offshot of blacksmithing and to become a bladesmith requires a very good working knowledge of blacksmithg as well as metallugy and design as well as enginerring.

I really have no desire to make knives, swords etc as I do not have the time to invest in doing it properly. I have been to busy just trying to keep up with blacksmithing, welding and machinework to make a living for myself and my family. But then I am not a MASTER, JOURNEYMAN or BLADESMITH. I am just a common everyday OLD Blacksmith and if I were to give myself any kind of title at all, it would be an APPRENTICE.


Well, I got that off my mind and now you can rub my nose in it if you want.

Irnsrgn
An Old 3rd generation Agricultural Blacksmith.

[JPH]

Irn:

If anyone trys to rub you nose in anything you said here they gotta go through me first... I am not saying I agree with what you are saying, nor am I saying I disagree with what you said.. What I AM saying is you have every right to say it. It's how you feel, it's what you wanted to say so say it.


<>

I think I met some of the same folks...I know you'd get a laugh seeing me work..I am a klutz of the first water. I amaze even myself that I am still (more or less) in one piece after doing this for as long as I have. I have a chronic case of severe "drop-sey"..I drop everything I am working on at least three times!!





Actually the medieval/renaissance guild systems were in place to maintain the powers of the Guild. Master and Journeymen appointments were just as corrupt then as some organizations are now. These titles were not always "earned by skill of the craft"..just as likely they were politcal or even bought by paying gelt to the Guild Masters. Some of these "payoffs' were rather costly...One recorded "tribute" was a set of gold plates for the Guildmaster...

Apprenticeships were sold..in fact your family usually had to pay the Master a stipend for your room, board, materials and his time to trian you. It was rather lucrative to have a few "apprentices" about.

Under the Guild system, at one time you could NOT teach your own son anything, they had to be sent elsewhere in a different craft, until the came of "age" what ever that means.

Yes, this changed in the US...I guess that "Yankee Independance" streak came through a bit.. This country always seemed to like the "renegade spirit" and well...it pretty much ended the Guild system as it was.

I for one an happy that it's gone..given the heartache I have gotten in the "modern world" over this stuff I'd probaly be burned at the stake for heresey or something back then...

JPH

[Strine]

Sadly JPH it sounds as though you have had some nasty experiences with the groups you have mentioned. That may or may not be true but we can only hope that Skillaid's desire to be a member of one group or another or to become a Certified Journeyman then Master is a happy one.
JPH I'm pretty new here and have no idea of your attitudes or feelings. I can only go by the written word.

It's no real news

...It was for me. Neither can I read between the lines of your post that your experience is considerable as is the assistance given to others over the years. And my second last word, fearing this exchange could be creating some bad karma; I don't believe I have insinuated anything and if I have then I offer my hand. And the last word; ironically, you are a "member" here.

Skillaid,
I come from a backward country at the bottom of the world where a number of blacksmithing groups have evolved over the years. The general ethic of these particular groups is one of association. ie getting together and associating with others. Naturally blacksmithing is the common thread, but there are a host of reasons why people join. In this country blacksmithing as a recognised trade is well and truly defunct so there is no point in having a governing body to issue trade certificates. The major teaching institutions at least where I live have all disposed of their blacksmith shops. If you did manage to get a ticket that says you're a blacksmith/bladesmith it would just be a piece of paper and may impress a prospective customer. I agree with others here though that your "qualifications" as a blacksmith/bladesmith will rest in the quality of the work you produce especially in this country.
Nonetheless Skillaid I wish you every success and hope that you enjoy the journey to master blacksmith/bladesmith. I only wish I was a bit further down that path than I am.

[John McPherson]

Organizations exist for many reasons, and people join them, and stay with them, for their own reasons. If I do not feel like I am getting good value from my dues, I drop out.

ABANA is one of those. The Hammers Blow was the only thing I felt was worth keeping, and I can buy those from the web site for a few bucks. The NC state affiliate was much cheaper, and has been a continuing source of friends, ideas, and demo's. I have met a few jerks in the ABS, but many more decent guys who will answer a question or help out when you hit a snag. Still an Apprentice myself.

As for classes, some are worthwhile, some are not. I have found that the ability to teach a subject has less to do with how well you understand a subject, and more to do with how well you communicate with others, how well you understand your students, and the intensity of your desire to share your love of the subject.

Oh, by the way, since he did not fill out his profile, I will tell you who JPH is ---Dr. Jim Hrisoulas, noted author, and (IMHO) one of the ten most influential men in custom bladesmithing in the last quarter century. Look up Salamander Armory sometime.

PS: When is the fourth book due to be published, Grand High Poobah? :roll:


edit: link added

[Shane Stegmeier]

Degrees and certificates and titles, don't make you good at what you do... BUT they can help you get into teaching positions, art shows, and navigate selection comitees, and sell in the art world, and as such a key to opportunities are a useful tool. Just don't get a big head;-) God hates a prideful look...

[sandpile]

On the subject of skills and transfering of these skills.

Over the years I have done several completely different things. Horse, dog, kid training.. I have added knifes, spurs and blacksmithing. No one can master several different skills. Time will not allow it.

When we embark on new trades, hobbies or just playing around with something new and getting bit by the bug. It takes people like IRN. or JPH to help us get from A. to B. and on.

I for one do not care if they are card-carrying members or not. I do care about their answers and attitudes toward me and ones like me. I thank them each time they steer me around a problem or trigger the thoughts that will get me past a problem.

There have been more helpfull folks in the Blade/Black smithing world, than any other fields I have encountered. It is amazing how easy it is to get help.

Thanks IRN. and JPH

Chuck

[Daryl]

Journeyman Trade papers do only a few things. They are a sign that someone has completed to a satisfactory degree the necessarry skills required to perform the tasks that would be needed within the scope of the designated trade (whew!). They do not illustrate the individual's work ethic, talent, or cleanliness. They also do not give any sign as to whether the person charges too little or too much.
It matters not whether the trade is blacksmith, mechanic, weldor, carpenter or plumber; there are many people on both sides of that piece of paper that are good and bad at what they do.
I personally know of smiths who could challenge any type of rank or test and pass without breaking a sweat; conversely, I also know of a few self-declared 'Masters' who have trouble with the basic physics of metal structure - only that when challenged, they declare the Sarah Bernhardt syndrome "I am an artiste!". True, many of their works are of significant merit, yet they cannot complete the full scope required in many blacksmith journeyman exams....does this make them any lesser of a smith? I think not.
At this point in history, I feel it is more important for the Craft to survive than to turn everyone into a Journeyman.
That does not mean we should not set out some degree of proficiency for those who wish to hit the mark.
For those of us who are able, both in skills and in time, perhaps we should give those starting out a nudge here and there. I have found that the more beginners I help out - the more iron I sell. I can't figure that out yet, and I don't need to.

[Daryl]

Here's the way I understand it.
Some of the old trades were such that a young boy (sorry ladies, in those days girls were never considered) at about age twelve or thirteen were brought into shops as helpers, usually doing all manner of menial tasks. As they were quite often treated brutally, families that sent their boys to a trade, tried to do so within either family memebers, where they still had some influence in the youth's treatment, or to a reputable Master. If the boy demonstrated good work ethic, he would be slowly initiated with minor tasks, in the case of the blacksmith, task like pumping the bellows, cleaning scale off of iron, polishing plowshares after completion, etc.. The more skill and talent shown, the more they would be taught; if they didn't have the talent, they would keep sweeping floors and doing all the heavy lifting. :cry: After the young man had learned all the skills that the particular Master could teach, he could either stay in that shop, or would journey to other shops looking for work. Hence the term Journeyman.
In some countries, a journeyman would require notes of recommendation from at least three Masters and all three had to agree that he was of a Master's level before they would collectively sign a Master's paper for him to achieve this rank.
The fact that money would quite often change hands would be acknowledged, but never spoken. :wink:
Guilds would be formed in order to set out minimum standards, and in some cases, set out minimum and maximum prices for work (to prevent gouging and undercutting - arguements), as well as ethical treatment of apprentices.
I've probably glanced over this too thinly.

[Shane Stegmeier]

It depended on the time and the culture as to weither women would be apprenticed, informally or not. There are recorded instances of women taking over their fathers or husbands shops and doing the work. Or working in the shop by the side of their father, or husband. There were also at one time small cottage industries where women seemed to have been preferred for, fine chain welding, and nail making for instance. Women especially working class and peasant women often worked in traditionally male roles when they needed to. Most examples you find of this are medieval and or from rural areas. Medieval guilds had very small areas of influence in reality, most of the ones that I am familiar with are in London England and most of the charters read "The confines of London and the surrounding 12 miles..." So in London you have The Worshipful Company of Farriers, The Worshipful Company of Blacksmiths, and The Company of St Katherine (the spurriers guild), etc... So a blacksmith in London could make horseshoes, but was prevented from nailing them on, nor was he allowed to make spurs or bits for horses. But a blacksmith on a estate outside the confines and land imediately surrounding London could make shoes and might be required to nail them on and make or repair bits for his lord's horses under his charge. The cush job was being the blacksmith on the estate of a generous lord or the king:-) nice lodging, good salary not piece work, clothing allowance, and a horse. There are mentions of urban shops being rented from landlords, so you can imagine the bills that the smith was paying, for rent, to a collier for charcoal, to an ironmonger for wrought, taxes and guild dues. Atleast they didn't have a cellular bill ;-)

I think the germans had a more organized system of guilds, especially as we move into the modern era (A guy I know was stationed in Germany and he was billeted off base in an apartment, and his landlord was offended to find out he had an unliscenced anvil in his possession... ;-)

[JPH]

Sandpile:

You are most welcome....in fact, thank you for the kind words. It's nice to know that you are indeed helping folks out..

When my first book hit, it caused a real ruckus with "established" makers...ohhhhhhhhh I caught some heat. Ya know what?? I didn't care then, and I sure don't care now. For every one I cheesed off I know I must of helped a thousand.

None of this stuff is all that hard...we are dealing with what I like to call "Dark Age Tech" here. Outside of a few minor changes the same techniques and processes are being used today that were in use 1500 years ago.

Granted I have been doing this a while now (I still can't believe book one is going to be 20 in another year and a half...) and I see no need to believe that any of this stuff is a secret.

Personally, I feel that if someone says what they know is a "secret" they either do not really know what they are talking about or they are very insecure in themselves and/or their skill level.

Now I will be the first to admit, and admit this gladly that there are things in this stuff that a neophyte has no business starting out with. Forge welding is NOT one of those. To me welding is a basic skill that must be mastered. Lamination of a blade on the other hand..well...here I feel that you must be able to do something decent with the material first.. As the Wise Man once said: "Why make a $50.00 knife out of a $500.00 piece of steel?"

I have my "students" start out with the basics..."S" hooks, trammles, basic blacksmithing techniques. If they don't have the patience to learn these basic skills, and you do use them making blades..then they will never make a decent knife.

Ya gotta pay the dues...learn from your mistakes...remember experience is what ya get when you don't get what ya wanted....

I have seen folks make some very pretty stuff, I mean drop dead gorgeous stuff that wasn't worth a tinker's dam when it came to cutting anything, just as I have seen some really fugly and funky looking knives that will cut all week and then some. So which knife is "better"??To me it's the one that will cut..

If someone wants to join a group..fine...I know a few folks who have... but you don't have to be a part of one to do good work. I know far too many "names" that are not a member of any organization that are more or less "legends" in their own time...

Groups?? not for this child...

JPH

[sandpile]

I have been very fortunate in having some really great makers take to the time and trouble to advise me.

D'HOLDER has answered a million questions and never not one time has he ever been rude or impolite. I now know that some of these questions should never have been asked much less answered. D is the primary mentor in my stock removal.

JOE CORDOVA was the same way. He has helped me imensely. Joe has added to my forging.

Several others have left their mark on me. It so happens that just about all of these guys are involved one way or another in their respective org.

D'HOLDER suffered the Presidents job in the KNIFEGUILD.
JOE CORDOVA was Chairman of the ABS.

This is not to say that you HAVE to belong to these groups. BUUTT some of the best makers in the world belong to them. They are the easyiest to find, when needed because their addys are posted in the different groups adv.

I have a good friend here in town that is a maker. He feels he was never good enough to belong to these orgs.. his knives will bring over $750.00 at the present time. He is the only one that thinks he was not good enough for the GUILD. SLIM CHANDLER is his name.

These orgs. have been instructive to a lot of people..

DR. JIM was making knives before these started up. As was D'HOLDER.

I thank each and everyone of them for their contributions to my meager skills

Chuck Bennett