chichi Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Like most members,I enjoy looking at the glossy photos of the pretty knives shown here and admire the maker's skills. Several years ago I aspired to be a decent knifmaker but found I did not have the patience.It also seemed like I was really a handle maker. I spent 4 + as much time on the handle as the forging of the blade. It would take longer to clean up after soldering the finger guard than to forge the blade. This may have been due to my ineptness but I enjoy forging a lot more than grinding . I gave up and now occasionally forge simple short bladed knives from hay rake tines(1095?). I dont grind out the scale or forge marks and the handles are wrapped with rope or leather, or chunks of wood shaped with a drawknife and rasp. These take just enough time to make it fun.The blades are short and useful and the comfort of the handles and sharpness is the main criteria. I dont claim these are great but they are fun. I was wondering if a competition would be of interest to the members. The rules would be no electricity for grinding etc. or power hammers and the main criteria is how much can be done in a limited time period-say one hour or so. The blade would have to be at least 2.5 or 3 inches long and .5 in wide and able to shave hair. The handle would have to be comfortable (ie. functional) to use. To maximize hand forging, the parent stock couldnt start flat. Only round or square to start.I know this does not allow time for normalizing the steel after forging but these are essentially disposable anyway. I am not stuck on the specifics I outlined except there should be a time component and the end product would be judged on function. Anyone interested? If there is interest, I would pop for a case of brew or a small gift certificate for the winner. Propose any other rules that would encourage the end result of a sharp, functional, hardened knife. Ugly is OK. A picture and brief description would be fun. When I get a camera, I will show my modest results. Thanks, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 For inspiration, here are some similar things that we did over on British Blades The 1 Hour KITH (knife in the hat) was actually 3 hours of work and could include machine tools of any sort. Folk came up with some good stuff too! One that I did just for the heck of it a few years ago now was this one not the nicest knife in the world (in the world)and I could do a much better job now I'm sure, but it only took 27 minutes (inlcuding the pictures). I did a thread on it here. all a bit of fun eh?! edit: I'd forgotten how bloody awful that 30 minute knife was :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marksnagel Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 Dave, I'm in. A one hour knife? Function over form? Usability over beauty? I'll give it a shot this weekend and post my results. Mark<>< ps, I'm no threat to the competition. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NRunals Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 That sounds pretty fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
golgotha forge & anvil Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 This could become interesting..just annealed 2 blades yesterday (flat ones unfortunately) but I've got some coil springs I could "heat up" ! Hmmmm ... Gene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted December 9, 2010 Author Share Posted December 9, 2010 Thats the spirit. The 27 min knife is exactly what I am talking about. I think it looks good. A good functional tool made with skill and determination!! The steel work took preference over the handle work. Great. Thanks, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_bluegrass Posted December 9, 2010 Share Posted December 9, 2010 I've been thinking of making what I've seen here called a blacksmith knife or other places a self knife. One where the tang is bent back as the handle. I happen to have a piece of hay rake. What I can't guarantee is that I could find a chance to light a fire, so don't count me in just yet but I like the idea. That will depend on weather and the end date of the competition. Of course there is the question of judging to determine the winner. A poll maybe? Any entry fees (I imagine mostly to cover any prize/prizes)? Any other details to work out? Summarizing the proposed rules so far one hour time limit fully functional blade - heat treated and sharpened minimum blade length - 2.5 inches ( or do you want to go with 3 inch) minimum blade width - 0.5 inches no electricity (do lights count? http://www.iforgeiron.com/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif ) can't start with flat stock ron who has no time keeping device in the shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted December 10, 2010 Author Share Posted December 10, 2010 Your summary is fine and lets say 3 in. minimum. Winner by poll is good. No fee . I will fund a modest prize. Electric lights and blower are fine. Time begins at first blow. This is not a serious matter so around 60 min. is good. I can easily forge the blade and make a wrapped handle but the sharpening is what killed my first try. I am hoping to pick up sharpening tips from the contest.Ugly,if sharp, is good. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Cool idea, but I'm a little slow on the sharpening...if I get a chance to light up the forge in the near future I'll give it a go anyways !! With this 1/2" min width, we're still allowed to taper to a point right ? I mean as long as part of the blade is 1/2" ? Otherwise we'll all be making straight razors ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
basher Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 Id be game however my normal heat treatment cycle takes upwards of 4 hours..... 3 normalisations ,quench and double 1 hour temper temper .this is however only around 10 min hands on time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted December 11, 2010 Author Share Posted December 11, 2010 As long as some part of the blade is .5 inch, you are good. Use the long heat treat cycle if only 10 min. of work. I was trying to keep it simple but I dont want to discourage anyone. I am slow sharpening and will use a hand crank grind wheel. It works to get the burr for stoning,but keeping a smooth bevel while holding knife in one hand and cranking is not a skill I posses.That is ok, we are going for function. Maybe someone has a good tool holding set up for an old crank grinder. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 I have a small hand crank grinder as well, and i've used it for a couple blades...I have to hold the blade along the top of the wheel lengthwise because there's not much clearance between the crank and the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 The one hour limit is a fuzzy thing, how about what you think an experienced person can do in about one hour and leave heat treat time out of it. This way hobbyists who don't get lots of practice are not intimidated as much. I hope to get some time to try this. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted December 12, 2010 Share Posted December 12, 2010 The one hour limit is a fuzzy thing, how about what you think an experienced person can do in about one hour and leave heat treat time out of it. This way hobbyists who don't get lots of practice are not intimidated as much. I hope to get some time to try this. Phil Also, time limits may cause people to rush, taking shortcuts...which can lead to injury. I would suggest rules along the lines of - making the simplest, most basic, no-frills cutting tool using whatever steel and design you choose. For example, if a neighbor stopped in with a case of beer or ten bucks or something and asked for a utility knife to use out in the yard...you make something cheap and easy to whatever design you feel would fit the bill. Personally I like seeing different people's ideas for designs as opposed to everybody making the "same" knife. Essentially we'll all be ending up with a small bit of steel with an edge on it...but we might get some neat little cutters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted December 12, 2010 Share Posted December 12, 2010 For example, if a neighbor stopped in with a case of beer or ten bucks or something and asked for a utility knife to use out in the yard...you make something cheap and easy to whatever design you feel would fit the bill. In this kind of scenario, I'd be like "yeah, I'll whack one out for you...but it's gonna be a rough edge, tapered tang in an unfinished chunk of wood for a handle" I think that's already asking a lot for 1 hour's worth of work...but if they're asking for a razor edge with no power tools I'll let him borrow my hand stone :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted December 12, 2010 Share Posted December 12, 2010 So nice to see a thread generate so much interest in the new crowd. It for sure will be interesting to see the way folks interpret this and wot they come up with. A thought or two for those new to forging : For this project you may do better with a plan in your head, or you may just want to beat on something and see how it comes out. Another way that i like is to do a few rough sketches on papere and when you get the profile that you like then transfer that dewsing onto sheet metal, any thing thin that will not burn up in use will work. Even a pop can opened up and flattened out. Cut the design in metal and as you are forging lay that pattern on the piece each time you are ready to go back in the fire. Then next time it is hot youwill have an idea where metal needs to be moved and how far. If you want to do more preperation for this challenge forge a few of that pattern in mild steel as skill builders. Then when you fire up the clock for the go at this you will have a real firm grasp of how to work. Thos mild steel twt pieces you forge are great fo learning the heat treating moves you candevelop. When you remove metal from the fheat it loses a lot of temp real fast and may fall below the temp you need for quenching. A couple of test runs with the mild steel will help you learn how to grasp with tongs, how far away the quench container can be and find out how to move smoothly from heat to quench. With the mild stell you may even wish to try hot rasping the profile of the blade . low dull red metal is eassioer to shape with a good rasp. you can hold meetal in tongs over edge of anvil to rasp or even better stick it in aq vise.. A quick clean up and then you will need one more heat to flattenit out..thenm on to heat treat. After hardening you can use this milde steel peice. even though it doesn not harden. You can shine up at least one side and learn how to watch colors as you temper it with what ever method you use. These prepperations for this event will develop your skills and help you do your best in this contest and may affeect how you work forever. Have fun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted December 13, 2010 Author Share Posted December 13, 2010 I started with a one hour time limit because I dont want people to obsess on pretty and just a littlt bit more. It also makes people concentrate and adds a little excitement. If safety is a concern because people will rush, how about two categories based on time. Knives one hour or less and knives in 90 minutes? Or, a small penalty for exceeding an hour? I forged a few this weekend and find I can easily forge a 3" to 4" in blade and full handle in about 20-25 minutes. I do a little hot filing in that time and can also do a heat treat in oil quenching the lower half of the blade. I use a hand crank grinder and can get a reasonable edge in say 15 minutes more. Hair shaving sharp is the challenge for me. I wrap the handle so very little time on that. If I could grind better(hand crank) , I might be able to get a 45 min. knife. With a little practice, I think someone could do a tang knife for a wooden handle with a metal band around the blade handle connection and possibly a threaded tang or clinched end with a pierced coin as the washer(hint,hint). I would not expect a beginner to be able to do this but it is a goal that is reasonable. In an earlier post, a member made a 27 minute blade. Let that be inspiration. I want people to feel liberated that functional is OK because the time limit does not allow anything more. I think I read that the Japanese have a saying that there is no skill without speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_bluegrass Posted December 13, 2010 Share Posted December 13, 2010 If you're concerned about people risking injury from rushing, how about one hour for the hot work (forging and any hot filing) and an additional 30 minutes for the cold work (filing, handling and sharpening). And the heat treat doesn't count time wise. Or something along those lines. This would still preclude spending enough time to polish anything without the pressure to rush anything. I spent around 45 minutes or maybe just a bit more forging a blade some time ago. Then a few hours to do the finish work. So I don't see where an hour needs to give the pressure to rush to the point of risking injury. And practice knives wouldn't count towards the time so anyone who wanted to practice on several pieces before hand to get up to speed. ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 I propose a size box instead of a time limit (although keep the time limit for people who are suitably capable, and feel they are) This way the knife is larger than (a x b ) and smaller than (c x d) Record times and tools and materials. People with better tools (grinders) will have an advantage on finishing The goal is forged to shape not stock removal. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 I'm going to give it a shot tonight and I'm not going to use my hand crank grinder since I'm assuming most people don't have one...just to be fair So I'll either be posting pics or notice of failure haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 I was going to put up some progress pics...but apparently my SD reader is not working...I put in my card and it's like it doesn't exist. (I don't mean to get off topic, but anybody have any suggestions ?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 Well, I was able to use my camera as my card reader...so here's what i got so far...there's approx 20-25 mins work time (I was considered starting over since it is so ugly...but I figured I'd just go with it) I didn't include straightening of the 3/16" spring I started with. There's really only about 10 mins of forging here (including hot cutting) The rest of the time was spent on a normalize/quench/temper, filing off the decarb, drilling a hole in a bit of scrap wood using my handy drilling machine shown and a bit of rough whitling of the handle. If I have some time left in the budget after sharpening I'll do a little more on the handle. (She's pretty thin so I just might be able to pull it off with a hand stone and then finish with my spyderco sharpmaker) The widest area of the blade is almost 3/4" and the area of blade I plan to sharpen is a little over 3" long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 Wow, yeah I just spent 20 mins with this thing on the stone and I don't even have an edge yet let alone a shaving edge...10 minutes left...not going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted December 14, 2010 Author Share Posted December 14, 2010 Craig, Good job. Thanks for posting pictures. I dont worry about scale. Put a little water on the anvil when you are close to finishing the flattening/smoothing process. It will shock off some of the scale and expect a large bang from the steam that is created when you hit the steel. Forge the edge fairly thin. That way, you will have less work getting an edge. I know, the old adage for edges is "forge thick and grind thin" but I push it some to make it easier to grind or stone. This is a good first attempt and you are improving your skills as you go along. Rough is endearing. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted December 14, 2010 Share Posted December 14, 2010 Craig, Good job. Thanks for posting pictures. I dont worry about scale. Put a little water on the anvil when you are close to finishing the flattening/smoothing process. It will shock off some of the scale and expect a large bang from the steam that is created when you hit the steel. Forge the edge fairly thin. That way, you will have less work getting an edge. I know, the old adage for edges is "forge thick and grind thin" but I push it some to make it easier to grind or stone. This is a good first attempt and you are improving your skills as you go along. Rough is endearing. Bob Worry about scale ?? I think it shows that I wasn't worried about anything !! Other than the 3"x1/2" dimensions that is...and except for near the handle there is no spot on the blade thicker than 1 mm. But not getting the sharpening finished without the grinder wasn't surprising for me...maybe i just need a better stone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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