Drq Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 I have no idea if this is a crazy idea but I thought I'd put it out there. I have a fair bit of 3/16 titanium plate (50 sq ft) and I was wondering if there would be any problems with using it as a floor in my forge as a way of dealing with flux erosion. I just got a Whisper Daddy forge, but still plan on running my homemade firebrick stack forge for doing oddball stuff. I was thinking since titanium is pretty heat resistant and corrosion resistant it might work pretty good and maybe even be a bit more heat reflective that refractory. Or am I just crazy ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 What do you hope to gain? A 1/2" thick clipper brick (thin firebrick) can be placed in the forge and pulled out as needed..or have the brick at a light angle so flux runs out. A think it is a cheaper solution to the same problem. A pool of flux at the bottom of the forge is not a nice thing either..something that can be removed simply and replaced is best. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edge9001 Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 ric, if you'll notice the titanium plate is already on hand. so cheap isn't going to ba an issue atleast if i read this right. as for will this work, I don't know, But i would like to find out, so I will continue to watch this thread. the one thing that comes to my mind though, is this, what it the heat range that titanium of that thickness work, will it hold its shape and integrity at forge temps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngdylan Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 gut reaction is a 3/16 plate will warp like crazy over a period of time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edge9001 Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 gut reaction is a 3/16 plate will warp like crazy over a period of time that's kindda what i was thinking. but I;m not familiar with titanuim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 CRAZY exensive!! to say the least. The company I work for bought 5 sheets of 1/8" TI last year at $13,500 per sheet and that was 4'x8' or 32 sqft. TI will burn, and you can not put it out , you need a class "D" fire extequisher to do it. Shoot, sale the stuff and by THE BEST GASSER on the market and pocket about 11grand! I work with this stuff on a regular basis and have never heard of it being used as a liner in any type of forge or heater. edge9001 mentioned that expense is not an issue as the TI is already on hand. I have to respectfully disagree, just because you have something doesn't mean it is cost free or the cheapest to use. Now if you had some Inconel, although expensive too, I would use it as this material is used in heaters and furnaces...what it is made for. TI for Corrosion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toreus Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 According to Wikipedia, Titanium melts at 3034*F, which is uncomfortably low. I've seen people forging titanium, so you probably get significant warping even if you manage not to melt it. If you can manage to sell it at a good price, I'd say Tomas Dean's advise is spot on the money (pun intended)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted September 19, 2010 Share Posted September 19, 2010 ric, if you'll notice the titanium plate is already on hand. so cheap isn't going to ba an issue atleast if i read this right. I have a 220 pound slab of titanium on hand, but using it to line the forge bottom is not something that would have occurred to me...pure nickel would be a better choice I think if I were to use metal, but ceramics are made for this stuff. There is a high chromium ramble ceramic mix which resists flux well...Mike Blue of Minnesota uses it in his forges. I believe he also ramps it down toward the front so the flux drips out..I have done this in the past as well and it works. Most of the time now I just line the bottom with Missuo(spelling?) castable and when I need a clean bottom for something I place a 3/4" thick clipper brick in place ($3). I would think you could sell ten square foot of the titanium plate and have enough castable and brick to keep the forge running for some time. Let me know what you want for some of the plate or maybe we can trade brick or castable for the titanium as I am a short distance from a supplier of the ceramic. Flux by its nature is rather reactive and I have not found anything which is permanent, however there are cheap consumable solutions if you wish to explore other options. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edge9001 Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Ric I re-read what i wrote earlier, and realized it might have come across as snippy. If you think so to I appologize, that was not my intention. sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drq Posted September 20, 2010 Author Share Posted September 20, 2010 The sheet it got from a scrap yard who has no market for titanium so I end up getting it for "almost free". Some of it is in good shape but a lot of it is pretty beat up. I didn't think there would be much market for unknown alloy, dirty, beat up and ground down titanium. I had some pieces the right size kicking around so I thought I'd give it a try. I would definately be up for some trading for some of the stuff in better shape though. Suprisingly enough i haven't had a problem with it warping, I used it as a cover for my furnace I use for casting. The center of the sheet will be bright yellow and the corners not even glowing and seems to be pretty stable. I'll watch it closer but it wasn't noticeable if it did. Thanks for all the replies, it pretty amazing to hear from people so quick. Drq Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweany Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 titanium makes great tongs, mullite (kiln shelf),rammable refrac and kitty litter make good forge floors, when the kitty litter get all gummy, rake it out and put some new in. But please let us know how the titanium works on the floor.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Ric I re-read what i wrote earlier, and realized it might have come across as snippy. If you think so to I appologize, that was not my intention. sorry No..Not at all, but I say the same to you. I do not intend to be snippy either. Thermal Transfer Titanium has about half to 1/3rd the transfer rate as mild steel. Copper is about six times the transfer rate as mild steel. Stainless steel (depending upon grade) is about/roughly 1/2 the rate as mild steel. I know it takes a lot longer for the titanium I forge to get hot in the center...its a two coffee heat up. Which means I can only heat it twice in one day as I'm cutting back on coffee. SO as Patrick Nowak has told me many times..."titanium makes good tongs". Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 I have had extensive experience with titanium and high heat applications. I have made exhaust ducting for high temp furnances and also interior baffles for huge auto claves for refining copper ore and transfer piping applications for carrying molten prouduct. I think it will hold up and if it costs you nothing why not try it out. One other thing that needs to be considered is titanium will absorb carbon and it compounds at high heat and could have adverse affects on it corrosive properties. I would still try it and see what happens. Please let us know what your results are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 I`m with Harold.If you have it hanging around and it`s already got sections that are beat then why not try it. The minimal investment makes it worth the time to experiment and you may discover something that will send us all out scouring the scrap piles looking to repeat your success. If it doesn`t work out well then you learned something and will still have enough left over to trade Ric for some tried and true old school refractory and he`ll get something in return that will be useful to him. That alone will be worth the small bit of time it took to post your questions and Ric his answers. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drq Posted September 20, 2010 Author Share Posted September 20, 2010 Well here's what I'm going to do, I'm kinda in the middle of things at work and my own shop (moving in a new to me 1915ish heald surface grinder ) so I'm not really forging anything lately, but ill make a pan out of ti, throw some slag and flux (I'm just using straight borax) and whatnot in there and fire my forge up for a couple of hours. I'll take some before and after pics and we'll see what happens. Sounds fair ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edge9001 Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 just be careful as some one already stated it will burn and you need the proper extinguisher to put out that fire. just in case. and of course let us know how it turns out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 I may be way off base here, but I'm thinking this may not be a good idea. Titanium melts at 3000+ F, but I assume that's in some kind of oxygen-free environment, because the pure stuff burns in air at around 2200 F. Presumably it could do the same in your forge, given a little spare oxygen. Some alloys may behave differently, but it seems to me this is something you'd want to approach with caution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 He did say he has already tried using this material as a lid for a smelting furnace with some success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Try a small piece of Ti first, and let the atmosphere get oxidizing. Before you go whole hog, it'd be a good idea to see what the worst-case is. And keep a video camera handy, because if you melt you forge with burning Ti we definitely need to see video! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 One of the best ways to cut titanium is with a oxy-acetylene torch and it average temp is 6000 degrees. Titanium melts at 3135 dergrees I have cut alot of titanium sheet with this method and never caught it on fire. If you are concerned take a small piece outside and try to set it on fire. If you ever have a piece of magnesium this is really fun to do with shavings, big pink fire ball This is something you definitly want to keep out of your forge. I have a complete set of the Metals Hand Book and red the whole chapter on forging titanium and it gives no cautions on forging it. If left to long in the forge it will just ruin the properties of the metal. I do not know if Rob Gunter is a member on this site but have seen his demo a couple of time on forging titanium and he never made mention of any dangers. There are titianium alloys with heat-treat charateristics comparable to high-nickle and Inconel maybe you are lucky and have one of these alloys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Robb coats his TI totally with flux. 30 years ago the vessel shop I was working for had a job with scarfing the bevel of a TI lined dome head. The slag was hot enough to catch the liner on fire and it was a total lose, the TI that is. It will burn. HWHII, we also will cut TI with a torch but have to allow 1/4" for machining to cut away the contamination of the torch cut. It the torch is left in one spot too long it will ignite and burn. Makes a WORLD of smoke!! and needs to be cut outside and with a fan or strong breeze. We do use Grades 1,2,& 7 TI., not sure what you are using and may be of a different grade that does not burn as easily. Yeah, the thin cut shavings from the machine shop are fun, especially at night. You can lite them with a BIC liter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 He did say he has already tried using this material as a lid for a smelting furnace with some success. I caught that, but that's not quite the same thing as sticking it inside a forge at welding temperature and letting it bake for a while. I'm just suggesting that it's worth a little experimentation. Or at least keeping the video camera handy! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted September 21, 2010 Share Posted September 21, 2010 Robb coats his TI totally with flux. 30 years ago the vessel shop I was working for had a job with scarfing the bevel of a TI lined dome head. The slag was hot enough to catch the liner on fire and it was a total lose, the TI that is. It will burn. HWHII, we also will cut TI with a torch but have to allow 1/4" for machining to cut away the contamination of the torch cut. It the torch is left in one spot too long it will ignite and burn. Makes a WORLD of smoke!! and needs to be cut outside and with a fan or strong breeze. We do use Grades 1,2,& 7 TI., not sure what you are using and may be of a different grade that does not burn as easily. Yeah, the thin cut shavings from the machine shop are fun, especially at night. You can lite them with a BIC liter. Thomas, I have never puposely tried to lite it on fire so now I am currious on how much it will take. I am going to have to go back to where I used to work and see if I can scrounge some up to play with. I would like a pair of titanium tongs anyway. I am wondering at what temperature it will flame on at. I will have to do some more research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drq Posted September 21, 2010 Author Share Posted September 21, 2010 I havn't had a chance to try anything, apparently one of my customers needs his 988 loader bored than I need to play, but I just wanted to say it warms my heart a little to find others that find a night experimenting with whether they can light titanium on fire a normal evenings activity. Cheers ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted September 22, 2010 Share Posted September 22, 2010 HWHII, try putting the Ti in contact with some (iron) scale while you heat it. Apparently that helps move things along. (Sounds like a thermite reaction to me.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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